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Thread: Purest competitive WGF experience

  1. #1

    Default Purest competitive WGF experience

    1v1 Dogfight, single-seaters only, ignore point values, and ban the planes that use these Maneuver Decks:

    L, M, O, F (except for Coppens’ Hanriot HD.1)

    I think that that leaves us with at least seven viable planes:

    1. RAF SE.5a
    2. Sopwith Camel
    3. Fokker Dr.I
    4. Macchi M.5
    5. Phönix D.I
    6. Hanriot HD.1 (Coppens)
    7. Fokker E.IV (Parschau)
    Last edited by Killer Moth; 03-22-2023 at 19:07.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    1v1 Dogfight, single-seaters only, ignore point values, and ban these planes:

    • Fokker D.VII
    • Siemens-Shuckert D.III
    • Sopwith Snipe

    Change my mind.
    Why do you feel those 3 planes are uncompetitive?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Why do you feel those 3 planes are uncompetitive?
    Karl
    They're too competitive. No single-seater can hold up against them.

  4. #4

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    Not sure what your goal is, but if you're going for perfect parity:
    Pick any model you want.
    Damage points for both planes = xx (e.g. 14)
    Use the same maneuver deck for both.
    Don't use Damage deck; instead, 1 pt for a long-range shot, 2 for short-range.

  5. #5

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    Goal is to create a game with as many viable single seater planes as possible. No rules changes—just decide what planes to ban.

    If the D.VII isn’t banned then it’s the only viable plane because no other planes stand a snowball’s chance in hell against it.

  6. #6

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    I've taken on a D.VII with a DH2 before now. And got off the table (just) after taking one down.

    As regards your list of superior a/c- I'd put the SE5a in there too.

  7. #7

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    Default

    Can’t get a more even match up than that!

  8. #8

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    Would you, Zoe? The F and Q decks have tighter turns. I think that, 1v1, that is preferable to the SE.5’s speed and wide slides.

    EDIT: I just realized that F also has wide slides
    Last edited by Killer Moth; 02-02-2023 at 00:58.

  9. #9

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    The Head-to-Head Dogfight Challenge I participated in at Enfilade 2013 had each pilot matched against another, using the same plane. Three to four bouts, with everyone swapping opponents (never flying against the same pilot, nor flying the same plane). Points were given for surviving the most bouts, then most damage inflicted, then least damage received.

    My second bout, flying a Dr.1 against a pilot with one game's experience (his second was against me), I inflicted one short ranged shot and one long ranged shot, then had one short ranged exchange. He collected five damage cards, and I collected two. The two cards I drew took me out of the fight, and he had drawn five zeros.

    Something similar could happen in any bout, flying any plane. No requirement to ban any particular plane.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

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    The mirror-matchup is a clever idea, but it removes the rivalry aspect of us arguing which plane is best, and then putting it to the test to defend its honor!

    EDIT: I must counter your anecdote with mine of when my Snipe threw 11 damage cards at someone before their D.Va threw one at me.

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    Last edited by Killer Moth; 02-02-2023 at 01:26.

  11. #11

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    You know, I think that I like the idea of banning the F deck. That makes the game more balanced, IMO, and the Q deck becomes viable.

    EDIT: I think that Coppens’ Hanriot HD.1 can remain because it only has one MG
    Last edited by Killer Moth; 02-02-2023 at 01:32.

  12. #12

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    I think that eliminating M, L, O, F (except Coppens) leaves us with at least six viables:

    RAF SE.5a
    Sopwith Camel
    Fokker Dr.I
    Macchi M.5
    Phönix D.I
    Hanriot HD.1 (Coppens)
    Last edited by Killer Moth; 02-02-2023 at 01:37.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Why do you feel those 3 planes are uncompetitive?
    Karl
    Hmm. I've been wondering why those models are so hard to find in the aftermarket.

  14. #14

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    Ha-ha-ha.......there is no pure competition. Pilot skill plus an element of luck determines outcome in gaming and real life. There are good examples of less effective planes winning out. Capt Arthur Ray Brooks, for example, took on a flight of eight Fokker D-VIIs, Brooks in his SPAD-XIII. Brooks shot down two, damaged two, then used the shot up SPAD's superior diving speed to escape. Brooks drew 0s and 1s, the Fokker pilots drew 3s and 4s.

    If purest competition refers to pilot skill, go with the "mirror match" senario which might be fun to watch. Afterwards, the pilots can arm wrestle in the Mess.
    Last edited by Larry R.; 02-02-2023 at 05:59.

  15. #15

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    Quite right, Larry, the planes don't fly themselves; some just require more thought then others and the draw from the damage deck is often the great leveller.

    "He is wise who watches"

  16. #16

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    My introduction to Wings of War was flying a Snipe against a D.VII. Knowing what I do now, I suspect the person offering the game expected to win.

    He didn't. I caught on to the mechanics immediately, and used the maneuver deck available to outfly my tutor. So, I don't know about banning planes. It isn't about balance, as that is never what combat is about, historically or otherwise.

    The only thing that would even out the challenge is to take out the randomness of the damage. Superior maneuver should be rewarded with superior damage. It is the one thing Ace Skills attempt to emulate with some small effect (Sniper, Perfect Aim, etc...). So, giving fixed damage for shots on target is a good thing. Then, it is more about flying skill than luck.

    Equalizing damage resistance takes out the variable of different structures, as well. And then, your desire to figure out which plane is better is no longer part of the contest.

    The title of this thread applies. The purest competitive experience is everything equal but the competitors. Take all other variables out. If you want to find out which plane(s) fly best, that is another contest.

    To find out what planes are the best: One pilot flys different planes against the same opponent in a specific plane. Then, you still need to eliminate any luck on the damage.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 02-09-2023 at 17:58.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #17

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    Alternatively, take ANY single seaters, fight them and then swap and fight again! That is "pure" and fair...

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry R. View Post
    Pilot skill plus an element of luck determines outcome in gaming and real life.
    And the machine's capabilities. The more capable a machine, the less that skill and luck are needed to overcome an opponent.

    If I have a Morane-Saulnier Type G, armed with a grappling hook, and you have a Fokker D.VII, armed with two machine guns, then I don't think that me being unlucky, or you being the better pilot, will be the consensus when we discuss why I lost, and you won, at the officer's club.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    And the machine's capabilities. The more capable a machine, the less that skill and luck are needed to overcome an opponent.

    If I have a Morane-Saulnier Type G, armed with a grappling hook, and you have a Fokker D.VII, armed with two machine guns, then I don't think that me being unlucky, or you being the better pilot, will be the consensus when we discuss why I lost, and you won, at the officer's club.
    The M-S Type G comes out of the sun... While the D.VII pilot is loafing along, thinking he has the world by the tail, when his top wing gets ripped off...

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    Last edited by OldGuy59; 02-03-2023 at 11:31.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #20

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    How about every time someone beats my D.VII with any other WGF single seater I give them $10? If I win they give me $5? Any takers?

    I have a feeling that I’ll get really lucky.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Quite right, Larry, the planes don't fly themselves; some just require more thought then others and the draw from the damage deck is often the great leveller.
    And that Squadron Leader is all the fun of the game. I love pitching myself against the odds and seeing how far I get before the inevitable happens and my bottle of Gin catches fire from a random shot.

    Kyte.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  22. #22

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    I always thought that there should be an Ace Skill called Teetotaler—remove two Flame Counters per turn, instead of one.

  23. #23

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    War isn’t fair, there is no such thing as a perfect match, it’s all about overcoming your adversary no matter what the challenge.
    It’s not about having to win every game, it’s about testing your machine and your ‘flying’ skill. If you fight the earlier years of the war the allies are usually outgunned by the German planes but it’s even more satisfying when you do down your opponent.

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  24. #24

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    Sure, but isn't the goal of a tournament to provide a competitive experience? And wouldn't a format that estsablished the widest array of viable planes make for the ideal experience?
    Last edited by Killer Moth; 02-02-2023 at 15:59.

  25. #25

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    I’ve never seen it as a competition really. The variation is what makes it interesting.

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    I always thought that there should be an Ace Skill called Teetotaler—remove two Flame Counters per turn, instead of one.
    Have you not seen the one they did for me Luke. When I'm on fire I have to take an extra marker because of the fumes in the cockpit.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    Sure, but isn't the goal of a tournament to provide a competitive experience? And wouldn't a format that estsablished the widest array of viable planes make for the ideal experience?
    We never play tournaments at our club as we saw how much acrimony it caused at other venues. I'm with Chris on this one. Having fun and pitting yourself against the odds is all.
    Rob.
    Last edited by Flying Officer Kyte; 02-04-2023 at 00:11.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  28. #28

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    Of course. But I think it’s interesting to explore the limits of the game’s tactical side. And even fun to experience it, now and then.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savoir Faire View Post
    Hmm. I've been wondering why those models are so hard to find in the aftermarket.
    Kazakov and Sapozhnikov's Snipes are currently hovering around $15.

  30. #30

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    That's a good price Luke. I f I were in the states I would snap one of those up.

    In case you can't find the card for my on fire penalty, here is one they dropped on me when I was a lowly Winco who had just got booted upstairs and therefore did not command the Bulldogs any longer, but got a job at the Wing HQ.
    Rob.

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    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  31. #31

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    Glad you enjoyed the joke Luke and thanks for the rep.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    Kazakov and Sapozhnikov's Snipes are currently hovering around $15.
    Yeah. Thanks. I found a Barker Snipe for roughly the same (and bought it). But I haven't found any Fokker D.VII or any Siemens-Shuckert D.III for anything like that.

    I'm late to the party (and no one to blame but myself), but I've just been wondering why the rarer planes are rare, and this was something of a clue.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savoir Faire View Post
    Yeah. Thanks. I found a Barker Snipe for roughly the same (and bought it). But I haven't found any Fokker D.VII or any Siemens-Shuckert D.III for anything like that.

    I'm late to the party (and no one to blame but myself), but I've just been wondering why the rarer planes are rare, and this was something of a clue.
    And, at the same time, the D.III's were only released in one wave, and the only D.VII that was released in two waves was Göring's. The models, themselves, are pretty sexy, too.

  34. #34

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    [QUOTE=Flying Officer Kyte;580121] In case you can't find the card for my on fire penalty, here is one they dropped on me when I was a lowly Winco who had just got booted upstairs and therefore did not command the Bulldogs any longer, but got a job at the Wing HQ.
    Rob.

    Awesome cards Rob. Thanks for sharing

  35. #35

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    Can anyone come up with a wider range of viables?

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    RAF S.E.5a
    Sopwith Camel
    Fokker Dr.I
    Macchi M.5
    Phönix D.I
    Hanriot HD.1 (Coppens)

  36. #36

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    If you have the time and committed players, do a round robin so every one flies every plane. Then you can use the DVII and all the other maneuverable planes. Make the matchups the same planes so everyone has the same chances.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    If you have the time and committed players, do a round robin so every one flies every plane. Then you can use the DVII and all the other maneuverable planes. Make the matchups the same planes so everyone has the same chances.
    Can you give me an example of how this would work with 4 players?


    Also, belated (but mad) props to Zoe for humoring me.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    Can you give me an example of how this would work with 4 players?


    Also, belated (but mad) props to Zoe for humoring me.
    I don't see having to rule out any plane as necessary. You can set up the matches any way you like as all players will fly the same planes against the same plane matchups.

    I guess this isn't a true round robin.
    Match up 2 players with your pick of planes, say DVII and Snipe. They play each other twice, swapping planes so they each fly once with the DVII and the Snipe, vs the same opponent. The other 2 players fly the same planes. Depending on how you score, the highest scoring player from each pair fly a pair of games against each other while the lower scoring 2 players face off for 2 games. Use whatever 2 different planes you want in these matches and swap planes as the first set of matches.

    My scoring system gives a player 2 points for a close range shot, 1 point for a long range shot, 5 points for a kill, -4 for shot down. Give out damage as per the damage cards as normal.
    Last edited by Teaticket; 02-04-2023 at 09:03.

  39. #39

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    How does flying off the map affect points in your scoring system?

  40. #40

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    Flying off the map would give the other player a kill but you only count as 1/2 of being shot down.(-2)

    I would put a minimum of turns before you can fly off board to keep people in the fight, or not allow it at all. This is a tournament of flying skill, not a point counting game.

  41. #41

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    I think that it should be W/L; no draws or points. If time expires, pilots draw damage cards until their plane is destroyed.

    My problem with awarding points for shooting your opponent is that when a point advantage is gained, one can flee until time expires.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    That's a good price Luke. I f I were in the states I would snap one of those up.
    Nobleknight is selling Baker's Snipe for $14, NM.

    Looks like Barker and Ryrie are the more pricey ones.

  43. #43

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    By WGF I meant WoG, but now I want to include WoW, too.

    Should the Fokker E.IV be banned?

    I'm inclined to say no; I think that the SE.5a, especially, can handle it.

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  44. #44

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    Planes that use these maneuver decks are banned:
    O, L, M, F (except for Coppens Hanriot HD.1)

    Viables
    1. Fokker Dr. I
    2. Fokker E.IV
    3. Hanriot HD.1 (Coppens)
    4. Phönix D.I
    5. Sopwith Camel
    6. Sopwith Snipe
    7. RAF SE.5a

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    Planes that use these maneuver decks are banned:
    O, L, M, F (except for Coppens Hanriot HD.1)

    Viables
    1. Fokker Dr. I
    2. Fokker E.IV
    3. Hanriot HD.1 (Coppens)
    4. Phönix D.I
    5. Sopwith Camel
    6. Sopwith Snipe
    7. RAF SE.5a
    Hmmm... not banning the fastest decks, but possibly the most maneuverable ones (most cards). Interestingly, the M deck is listed as banned, but the only plane that uses it is the Sopwith Snipe, which is acceptable?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  46. #46

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    Yep, you've got it.
    Last edited by Killer Moth; 02-10-2023 at 11:03. Reason: misunderstood your post

  47. #47

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    My 2 cents on this: the purest competitive fight is using exactly equal aircraft - e.g. A-firing SPAD Vs Albatros D.Va or Fokker Dr.I Vs A-firing Sopwith Triplane (WoW). Or just use exactly the same aircraft and throw historical accuracy to the wind...

  48. #48

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    My title is probably a misnomer. Really I just wanna know what’s the greatest # of planes that can stand a chance against one another.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    They're too competitive. No single-seater can hold up against them.



    i would dispute that. with the boom card, other high value or special damage cards in the deck, it acts as a balancing factor so that a lesser aircraft can prevail over a more advanced one. in grinder scenarios where you advance to a better aircraft, ive been competitive against more advanced aircraft. i consider disparate aircraft much more competitive than better balanced ones.
    but thats a great thing about this game, you can play it any way you see fit!

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    Goal is to create a game with as many viable single seater planes as possible. No rules changes—just decide what planes to ban.

    If the D.VII isn’t banned then it’s the only viable plane because no other planes stand a snowball’s chance in hell against it.



    i find the se5a and snipe can easily hold their own against dVIIs.

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