The Breguet is the weapon of the future

**Guntruck** · 04-05-2012 03:21

Last night I took the opportunity to put on a game with a few aircraft that I had not tried out before. It was very basic, just to test out the strengths and weaknesses of the planes. So, we had three Breguet 14s returning from a raid escorted by a couple of SE5s, and intercepted by two Pfalz D.IIIs and a brace of Fokker Triplanes. The Breguets entered on one edge of the table and had to exit the opposite end without getting shot down. All but the Tripes were on their first outing.

To my mind, so long as at least two of the Germans could avoid the SE’s, the Breguets would be toast. How wrong can you be?

The SE’s flew ahead of the Breguets to run interference, and once the Germans got within range of the SE’s a bit of minor damage was done to both sides. The SE’s overshot leaving the huns a clear run at the Bombers who looked dead in the water (air?). Here it was that the cunning plan rapidly unravelled…..

One Fokker attacked a Breguet and got a couple of large A hits against him for his pains, scoring only minimal damage on the Breguet in return. On Phase 2 it flew past the bomber formation and finished up in range of all three rear gunners. This left another empty seat in the Jasta mess. The two Pfalz had been working their way round for a beam attack which they made next turn. Unfortunately they overcooked the angle of attack and were again hit by the rear gunners, leaving one Pfalz with a jammed rudder and the other on fire. Both didn’t last longer than the next move. The remaining Fokker tried to position himself for an attack while avoiding the SE5s, but found himself outpaced by the bombers, who reached the table edge before the triplane could catch up with them. Only one of the Breguets had any serious damage done to it.

Game two, and we decided to dispense with the SE5 escort to see if the Germans had more luck – they didn’t. The players flying the bombers had worked out that they weren’t necessarily dead meat and started throwing their planes about like fighters. Finally, one Breguet bit the dust but not before severe damage was inflicted on both Fokkers and one of the Pfalz. Again the remaining Breguets managed to outrun the Germans to the edge of the table.

So, lessons learned – the Breguets turned out to be ‘hot ships’ flying more or less as fast as the German fighters, and having a very considerable sting in their tail, not at all what I expected. The players with the SE5s had trouble with the manoeuvre deck and spent most of their time overshooting. The Pfalzs I thought should have performed better but seemed no better than the Fokker Triplanes, and once the Breguets got clear could not catch up with them.

**john snelling** · 04-05-2012 03:33

Good lessons learned. If you were using the A deck for the BR14's they do not need an escort. I'll run 6 BR14s in formation with no escorts but only use the B deck with everyone else being German. Still turns out to be a good match. Try using limited ammo for the observer and no plus one for the BR14 to give the German players a better chance.

**Rat of Vengence** · 04-05-2012 03:35

One of the kids at my school club has a Breguet, I don't let him take it 'instead' of a scout as it is too powerful. I try to make games as even as possible, especially with so many new players at the moment.

Dave

**Jager** · 04-05-2012 03:57

This was similar to my experience with bombers in formation; see the AAR from last fall's FloorWars:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...mpaign-WoW-AAR
Then we had 7 bombers, with 2 Entente and 3 CP scouts, and didn't lose a bombers.
We reprised this down at the Soldiery either December or January (the AAR doiesn't appear to have been posted). We had more players, and a greater ratio of CP scouts, so 2 bombers were shot down when we called time. Playing to the end of the table probably would have cost the bombers 1 or 2 more (2 were pretty shot up.).
The upshot is that late war 2-seaters were not that much inferior to scouts, and in our system, the speed and manuvering difference is made up by the rear gunner. Even with using a slower deck for the 2-seaters when loaded with bombs, the scouts have a hard time catching up with them. Unloaded, it's nearly impossible.
Karl

**Archidamus** · 04-05-2012 05:45

Based on WoG I do wonder why both sides didn't use two-seaters to hunt scout planes!

**CaptWillard** · 04-05-2012 06:16

The Airco makes a fine scout hunter as well

**Zoe Brain** · 04-05-2012 06:43

Originally Posted by Archidamus

Based on WoG I do wonder why both sides didn't use two-seaters to hunt scout planes!

Towards the end of the war, they did.

The Brisfit you know about. But the Hannover CL.III, Halberstadt CL.II and CL.IV were all used as escort fighters too, as well as long-range fighters vs singleton bombers. The W.29 seaplane was also used as a fighter in coastal regions, going after not just seaplanes, but taking on land-based air as well.

There's a big difference between the C class and CL class. The latter are, essentially, 2-seater fighters that can be used for ground attack, but also are capable of taking on single-seat scouts on better than even terms.

The French Caudron C.XI was used in a different manner, relying on sheer firepower as well as speed to protect bombers.

**Carl_Brisgamer** · 04-05-2012 06:45

Originally Posted by Guntruck

So, lessons learned – the Breguets turned out to be ‘hot ships’ flying more or less as fast as the German fighters, and having a very considerable sting in their tail, not at all what I expected. The players with the SE5s had trouble with the manoeuvre deck and spent most of their time overshooting. The Pfalzs I thought should have performed better but seemed no better than the Fokker Triplanes, and once the Breguets got clear could not catch up with them.

The Breguets are indeed tough nuts, and the Fokker Dr.I has a problem catching anything on the board.

Do you play with altitude? And did your German scout pilots 'gang up' on one Breguet at a time, all attacking from the same arc? If you get your tactics right even the late war two seaters can take a pasting.

Cheers,

Carl.

**john snelling** · 04-05-2012 08:34

Originally Posted by Archidamus

Based on WoG I do wonder why both sides didn't use two-seaters to hunt scout planes!

It is interesting that you mentioned two-seater fighters. From what I read the French next generation of fighters after the Spad XIII were going to be two-seaters. The French were going away from the single seat fighter!!

**somaliavet** · 04-05-2012 08:43

Originally Posted by Archidamus

Based on WoG I do wonder why both sides didn't use two-seaters to hunt scout planes!

Let me remind you about the F.E. 2b.

**Belis4rius** · 04-05-2012 09:19

I think you were expecting too much from your Scouts rather than the Breguet being a super weapon. The Pfalz is mediocre and the Triplanes have a small damage number, and to have only four against three two seaters is asking a bit much. I don't know if you used the A/B or B/A or maybe A/A combination for the bombers (not sure about the last one), but any of those are a powerful weapons platform. I would normally have two enemy scouts for each bomber, and using this my bombers are fairly vulnerable and this in turn makes the escort all the more important.

**Guntruck** · 04-05-2012 13:08

Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer

The Breguets are indeed tough nuts, and the Fokker Dr.I has a problem catching anything on the board.

Do you play with altitude? And did your German scout pilots 'gang up' on one Breguet at a time, all attacking from the same arc? If you get your tactics right even the late war two seaters can take a pasting.

Cheers,

Carl.

Yes we used altitude. I wouldn't say that the Germans were all that organised. However the Breguet players kept pretty good formation in the first game, and went after the Germans more in the second.

**GilmoreDK** · 04-05-2012 13:31

Of you read the loss lists in the aforementioned "Bloody April... Black September" then it is obvious that by September 1918 the Breguets took rather heavy losses despite being in large escorted groups. I think the problem lies in the rear gunners in WOG being far too deadly. Hitting anything that is not dead to the rear should be very difficult and often you had to both calculate your own planes movements as well as an attacking plane. Very often gunners dispensed with the dual mounted Lewis in favour of a single as the double set up was very heavy to move about (unless the gunner was beefy)and more a subject to the G-forces. Add to that being in a moving plane fighting heavy wind resistance. It is hard to find any evidence that a single rear gunner should be nearly as effective than say a single gunned Spad VII.

**Hunter** · 04-07-2012 04:42

I agree that the Breguets are a tough opponent. However, I've seen them draw the big 'X' card. That usuall evens the score!

**Pooh** · 04-07-2012 11:38

A better choice for the Germans than the Dr1 would have been the Albatros DVa. It has the speed to match the bombers and is tougher. The best choice, of course, would be Fokker DVIIs.

I agree with the comments above. The bombers are deadly, especially with the A/A guns. (I also think the rear gunner is much to powerful). If the bombers stay in formation, the scouts need to gang up on 1 of the end planes being careful not get within arc of multiple gunners at once. No scout will last long under that kind of pounding.

Pooh

**greenalfonzo** · 04-07-2012 16:44

2 seaters were always tough, but there's a couple things the game doesn't model very well. One is the difficulty the rear gunner had in following an attacker while his pilot evasively maneuvered - throwing him and his aim off. The other is the use of tactical altitude by the attacker in getting just below the gunner's aim.

**Oberst Hajj** · 04-08-2012 00:03

5 Entente planes with mostly A guns (a total of 8 firing arcs) vs. 4 CP planes (4 firing arcs) and the CP planes being two of the weaker plane types... I think the games played out just as they should have.

I would have loved for Andrea and Ares to have made a new "E" damage deck for rear gunners with the re-release of the game.

**Hunter** · 04-08-2012 02:21

Originally Posted by Pooh

A better choice for the Germans than the Dr1 would have been the Albatros DVa. It has the speed to match the bombers and is tougher. The best choice, of course, would be Fokker DVIIs.

I agree with the comments above. The bombers are deadly, especially with the A/A guns. (I also think the rear gunner is much to powerful). If the bombers stay in formation, the scouts need to gang up on 1 of the end planes being careful not get within arc of multiple gunners at once. No scout will last long under that kind of pounding.

Pooh

Here's how we corrected this;

Rear gun 'over' effectiveness solution

These Lewis/parabellum gunners have kept me awake at night with their 'invincibility'.
So, after much ruminating I've come up with a reasonabl and realistic solution in new house rules for Los Estrellas Distoras. They are as follows;

1) Ammunition loads;
a) Vickers, Spandau, Schwartzlose and other belt fed machine guns
will have a maximum ammunition load of 16.

b) Lewis, Parabellum, Marlin and other drum/magazine fed machine guns will
have a maximum ammunition load of 4 for each drum with a total of
4 drums for a total ammunition load of 16.

2) Shooting machine guns;
a) Shooting belt fed weapons is performed in the normal manner, except
now instead of 8 ammo points they now have 16. When the weapons
reach 16 they are "Winchester" (out of Ammo). The aircraft must land
and be rearmed to use again.

b) Shooting drum fed weapons is as follows; gun has first drum on the
weapon and is loaded. Gunner/MG has 4 ammo points. When these
4 points are exhausted the gunner must reload with the next drum,
and so on until all drums are exhausted.

i) Reloading requires three (3) movements to complete;
1-remove empty drum, 2-install loaded drum, and 3-lock
and load the weapon. You will note this is the same
number of movements as clearing a gun jam.

ii) When reloading the gunner will receive three 'gun jam
tokens' to use as a standard gun jam sequence during
play to demonstrate the reloading drum sequence. i.e.,
played the same as a gun jam.

3) Gun Jams;
a) If an aircraft has both belt fed and drum fed weapons and the pilot
draws either the RED or GREEN jam card only one type of weapon is
jammed, either belt fed or drum fed, not both.

b) If during the course of one gun jammed and another RED or GREEN jam
card is drawn then the second jam is for the unjammed weapon
regardless of its type.

c) If an aircraft has 2 or 3 forward firing belt fed weapons only, no drum
fed weapons, and either RED or GREEN jam card is drawn, it applies only
to one of the weapons. If another RED/GREEN jam card is drawn in the
course of one weapon being jammed the card applies to an unjammed
weapon and so on.

d) If a pilot has the 'BULLET CHECKER' ability and is an ACE and draws the
GREEN jam card, it does not apply and is disregarded. If the RED card is
drawn it is applied and applies to only one type or one weapon as
described above. This is the only time there is a difference in playing of
the RED or GREEN card. In all other situations, the two cards are played
and applied in the exact same way.

e) The pilot who has the jam card applying to his guns/plane determines
which type of weapon is jammed, e.g., belt vs drum fed weapon being
jammed.

f) A pilot has the discretion to either clear a jam or fire on the enemy
with an unjammed weapon during a movement phase. Not both.
If firing he cannot work on clearing a jam/reloading an upper wing
Lewis, e.g., Pilot in SE5a draws a gun jam card and decides his Lewis
is the jammed gun. As per the general rules, it will take 3 movement
phases to clear. First movement he begins to clear the jam. Second movement
he has a shot with his Vickers and decides to take the shot and can not work
on clearing his Lewis jam. Third movement phase he has no shot and begins the
next sequence of clearing the Lewis jam. New turn, first movement phase he
completes the Lewis jam clearing and thus the lewis is cleared. New turn
second movement phase, first phase that the Lewis can be fired after
the jam is cleared, he has another shot and can fire both types of weapons.

These are now official in our house rules and we play tested these this past Saturday. We use limited ammo and keep track of it on our a/c & pilot data sheet. There were no negative impact on playing and was well received by the players. No extra hardship or undue confusion was seen in this change of our house rules. It evened out the 'over' effectiveness of two-seat rear gunners, multi-engine bomber gunners, and Zeppelin/RNAS ASW balloons.

Just thought I'd put it out there for anyone interested. We're using them from this point forward as it adds a little more realism without disrupting the basic tenets of the game. Oh, and we still use the rear gunner blind spot rules.

Enjoy

Some folks here say this is confusing. It works for us and once you try them they're logical in the game. Just another option for you.

**Pooh** · 04-08-2012 19:26

In our games we avoid using 2 seaters with A/A guns. Giving the Rear gun a B rating helps, particularly with late war scouts who will be armed with A guns. We also usually give the attackers a numerical advantage although one must be careful with this as its easy to go too far and have the bombers be quickly overwhelmed. We've had that happen too.
I'm also with the Col. wishing that there would be an E deck for rear gunners. I'm thinking of adding one on my own, detuning a B deck just a little.
Right now we're trying to figure out the correct mix for when we get the Zepplin Staaken RVI in the air. That's coming soon.

Pooh

**Hunter** · 04-10-2012 03:54

Will read of your Staaken scenario with anticipation.

**PilGrim** · 04-10-2012 08:19

Originally Posted by Hunter

Here's how we corrected this;

Rear gun 'over' effectiveness solution

These Lewis/parabellum gunners have kept me awake at night with their 'invincibility'.
So, after much ruminating I've come up with a reasonabl and realistic solution in new house rules for Los Estrellas Distoras. They are as follows;

1) Ammunition loads;
a) Vickers, Spandau, Schwartzlose and other belt fed machine guns
will have a maximum ammunition load of 16.

b) Lewis, Parabellum, Marlin and other drum/magazine fed machine guns will
have a maximum ammunition load of 4 for each drum with a total of
4 drums for a total ammunition load of 16.

2) Shooting machine guns;
a) Shooting belt fed weapons is performed in the normal manner, except
now instead of 8 ammo points they now have 16. When the weapons
reach 16 they are "Winchester" (out of Ammo). The aircraft must land
and be rearmed to use again.

b) Shooting drum fed weapons is as follows; gun has first drum on the
weapon and is loaded. Gunner/MG has 4 ammo points. When these
4 points are exhausted the gunner must reload with the next drum,
and so on until all drums are exhausted.

i) Reloading requires three (3) movements to complete;
1-remove empty drum, 2-install loaded drum, and 3-lock
and load the weapon. You will note this is the same
number of movements as clearing a gun jam.

ii) When reloading the gunner will receive three 'gun jam
tokens' to use as a standard gun jam sequence during
play to demonstrate the reloading drum sequence. i.e.,
played the same as a gun jam.

3) Gun Jams;
a) If an aircraft has both belt fed and drum fed weapons and the pilot
draws either the RED or GREEN jam card only one type of weapon is
jammed, either belt fed or drum fed, not both.

b) If during the course of one gun jammed and another RED or GREEN jam
card is drawn then the second jam is for the unjammed weapon
regardless of its type.

c) If an aircraft has 2 or 3 forward firing belt fed weapons only, no drum
fed weapons, and either RED or GREEN jam card is drawn, it applies only
to one of the weapons. If another RED/GREEN jam card is drawn in the
course of one weapon being jammed the card applies to an unjammed
weapon and so on.

d) If a pilot has the 'BULLET CHECKER' ability and is an ACE and draws the
GREEN jam card, it does not apply and is disregarded. If the RED card is
drawn it is applied and applies to only one type or one weapon as
described above. This is the only time there is a difference in playing of
the RED or GREEN card. In all other situations, the two cards are played
and applied in the exact same way.

e) The pilot who has the jam card applying to his guns/plane determines
which type of weapon is jammed, e.g., belt vs drum fed weapon being
jammed.

f) A pilot has the discretion to either clear a jam or fire on the enemy
with an unjammed weapon during a movement phase. Not both.
If firing he cannot work on clearing a jam/reloading an upper wing
Lewis, e.g., Pilot in SE5a draws a gun jam card and decides his Lewis
is the jammed gun. As per the general rules, it will take 3 movement
phases to clear. First movement he begins to clear the jam. Second movement
he has a shot with his Vickers and decides to take the shot and can not work
on clearing his Lewis jam. Third movement phase he has no shot and begins the
next sequence of clearing the Lewis jam. New turn, first movement phase he
completes the Lewis jam clearing and thus the lewis is cleared. New turn
second movement phase, first phase that the Lewis can be fired after
the jam is cleared, he has another shot and can fire both types of weapons.

These are now official in our house rules and we play tested these this past Saturday. We use limited ammo and keep track of it on our a/c & pilot data sheet. There were no negative impact on playing and was well received by the players. No extra hardship or undue confusion was seen in this change of our house rules. It evened out the 'over' effectiveness of two-seat rear gunners, multi-engine bomber gunners, and Zeppelin/RNAS ASW balloons.

Just thought I'd put it out there for anyone interested. We're using them from this point forward as it adds a little more realism without disrupting the basic tenets of the game. Oh, and we still use the rear gunner blind spot rules.

Enjoy

Some folks here say this is confusing. It works for us and once you try them they're logical in the game. Just another option for you.

It seems logical, but my only concern is that by increasing the amount of belt fed ammo to 16 you are creating 2 new problems.

1. Belt fed guns are now highly unlikely to run out of ammo - that being the case why not say they have unlimited ammo?
2. You are going to need an awful lot of ammo cards if your game involves more than three or four planes a side. I'm also worried it may be cluttered if you now have 5 piles of ammo cards on each two seater?

How about leaving the ammo at 8 and either reducing the rear gunners to only 4 cards (2x2) or leaving them at 8 but requiring a reload at 4?

**Hunter** · 04-13-2012 20:43

I just now saw this, so apologize for late response,

You've raised good points, however I neglected to mention that we use a homemade laminated pilot card for each scout, two-seater, bomber, zep, & balloon and keep track of damage, ammo expenditure, and wounds.

Point #1 - It may appear that this could be an unlimited ammo situation, it is not. With the limitation of ammo you have to take time and maneuvering to get a good shot. Early on nobody would get in close or tail , they'd just stand off and shoot long range all day and never run out of ammo. You can run out ammo, especially against bombers or zeps. We also play that you have to declare you are shooting before you measure. If you measure and are too far away...well, you miss and lose an ammo point.

Point #2 - We don't keep the damage cards in a pile but check off boxes on our cards for damage taken and return the drawn damage card to the deck and reshuffle for the next drawing. When we originally made our cards we used the suggested 8 points of ammo suggested by the site. When we used 8 points alot of '0's would be drawn, at times. It was frustrating to fly around and get in a good position and throw two ZERO cards at your opponent (in one of our games last year a newbie exhausted his ammo and after the scenario he threw out 8, count 'em, 8 ZERO cards). Plus we have larger missions, anywhere from 4 to 12 planes and multi-engine bombers and zeppelins to contend with. So without making/laminating new cards, at expense, we used the 8 boxes but make an 'X' in each box. Each 'X' = 2 ammo points. That's why it's 16.

If you want to play with 8 ammo points go ahead. You can do whatever you want in your group. That's the beauty of the game. To answer your last question above, nope. For now we'll keep using 16 (it goes fast against a bomber!) and 16 with 3 reloads after each 4 for the drum fed MG's. Let me know how your suggestion works, I'd be interested.

**BobP** · 04-14-2012 15:17

Very good information from all. Something to think about and mayby use.

**Zoe Brain** · 04-20-2012 00:12

The Ultimate Breguet 14? The minigun in the rear would be a nasty surprise.

Click image for larger version.

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**CaptWillard** · 04-20-2012 05:44

And what would the ammo load be?

**csadn** · 04-20-2012 12:34

Originally Posted by Guntruck

So, lessons learned – the Breguets turned out to be ‘hot ships’ flying more or less as fast as the German fighters, and having a very considerable sting in their tail, not at all what I expected. The players with the SE5s had trouble with the manoeuvre deck and spent most of their time overshooting. The Pfalzs I thought should have performed better but seemed no better than the Fokker Triplanes, and once the Breguets got clear could not catch up with them.

Historically accurate -- for a time after WW1, the "hot ticket" was "turret fighters". It got worse later, when bombers went to retractable-gear monoplanes while fighters remained fixed-gear biplanes; it wasn't until military designs started getting humiliated regularly at air races by civilian-built monoplanes that the military designers got the message.

If the two-seater player is able to keep his units in mutual-support range (half-a-ruler), any one trying to come in from behind is going to get slit up a treat.