Rudder Jams Clarification - FA/WYB Rules vs. BD

[Dwarflord22]

While playing a solo scenario using the special damage rules for the first time, my plane suffered a left rudder jam.

The FA/WTB rules state, "The airplane may not choose Maneuvers to the left (or right) for the next turn."

The BD rules state, "The airplane cannot plan maneuvers to the left (or right) at the BEGINNING of the next turn."

Based on the BD rules, does this mean you can plan maneuvers to the left (or right) after the first maneuver of the next turn, or am I reading to much into this?

NOTE: I checked the WWI Rules threads before maknig this post to try avoided asking a question that may have already been answered.

[Tommy Z]

Since you plan all three cards at the beginning of the turn, you may not play a left (right) for the entire turn (all three moves).

[Boney10]

I agree with Tommy, thats te way Ive always interpreted the rule, no turns for the entire next turn, all three phases

[Oberst Hajj]

The three rule books actually explain that rule the same, just in different language that leads to a little confusion. In all cases, no left or right turns for the three maneuver cards of the next turn.

[Dwarflord22]

Thanks to everyone for the responses

[sparty]

I'll be the lone dissenting voice here...

1. If they meant no turns at all, why bother with separate left and right rudder damage cards?
2. When text is contained in paranthesis it can mean it as a substitution rather than an addition to the text preceding it.
3. Many of the rules for this game were taken from other systems like Blue Max. In nearly all those systems the rudder left & rudder right damage means no turning to the direction of the damage not no turns at all.

We've played it as no turns to the left if left rudder damage for the next full turn and if you draw a right rudder damage card then no right turns for the next full turn.

You would have to draw BOTH right rudder AND left rudder to make no turn at all the way I've always read those rules.

Since the planes were essentially crude "fly by wire" it is entirely plausible that only one side of the rudder would jam allowing the other rudder wire normal operation to execute a turn.

[flash]

See, confusion works !
Sparty you are correct at 2 and 3 above, and in the way you have been playing it (& I'm sure that is what Herr Oberst meant !)

[sparty]

You're right. This is a tricky one because it really requires two separate statements rather than trying for an economy of words. Since I have no skill an economy then...well...you get longer posts...and I'll just stop here

[Bruce]

Not intending to confuse the answer, but wanting to add some additional "finesse", we also play that if you have both a LEFT and a RIGHT rudder jam at the same time the aircraft can NOT make an Immelmann either. AND, if the aircraft gets two same-direction rudder jams in the same Turn, it's rudder is jammed for the remainder of the game/sortie.

[flash]

First bit makes good sense Bruce, second bit is a nice touch.

[Willi Von Klugermann]

Not intending to confuse the answer, but wanting to add some additional "finesse", we also play that if you have both a LEFT and a RIGHT rudder jam at the same time the aircraft can NOT make an Immelmann either. AND, if the aircraft gets two same-direction rudder jams in the same Turn, it's rudder is jammed for the remainder of the game/sortie.

I've done this as well but it is sort of funny that the rules allow for Immelmanns yet turns are verboten even though applying rudder isn't required. Maybe the card should read aileron jam.

[sparty]

Not intending to confuse the answer, but wanting to add some additional "finesse", we also play that if you have both a LEFT and a RIGHT rudder jam at the same time the aircraft can NOT make an Immelmann either. AND, if the aircraft gets two same-direction rudder jams in the same Turn, it's rudder is jammed for the remainder of the game/sortie.

Oh nasty treatment. I'm definitely a fan of that!

[sparty]

Not intending to confuse the answer, but wanting to add some additional "finesse", we also play that if you have both a LEFT and a RIGHT rudder jam at the same time the aircraft can NOT make an Immelmann either. AND, if the aircraft gets two same-direction rudder jams in the same Turn, it's rudder is jammed for the remainder of the game/sortie.

Oh nasty treatment. I'm definitely a fan of that!

[Boney10]

If my comments was confusing apologies.
I suppose what should have been said was no turns allowed for the next three phases of the next turn in the direction that the rudder is jammed either left or right and NOT no turns at all

[darkwing]

okay just to confuse things further what would you do if on the first manouvre of a turn you were shot and picked up a rudder jam - no left turn-, and your 2nd and/or 3rd manouvre of that same turn were to the left?

reading the previous posts i would understand that i could continue to make the left turn on 2nd/3rd manouvre BUT on the next turn i couldnt make any left turns in that manouvre phase

or

do you not make the left turn on 2nd/3rd manouvre and 1st manouvre of Next turn, possibly swapping it out for a "straight" manouvre when needed?

cheers
john

[Archidamus]

The intent of the game mechanics is that the "jam" commences at the beginning of the next set of three cards - which keeps it simple. But I like your idea as a house rule i.e. any affected turn in the current cards is replaced by a straight - seems for realistic, and does mean that pilots will be out of position whereas the official version means you can plan around your rudder damage.

[Hunter]

The intent of the game mechanics is that the "jam" commences at the beginning of the next set of three cards - which keeps it simple. But I like your idea as a house rule i.e. any affected turn in the current cards is replaced by a straight - seems for realistic, and does mean that pilots will be out of position whereas the official version means you can plan around your rudder damage.

I like your comment on this. It's logical and realistic. I'm going to incorporate it in our play and see how it works.

[Oberst Hajj]

I like your comment on this. It's logical and realistic. I'm going to incorporate it in our play and see how it works.

We might do this with our group as well. The only draw back being that the damage is no longer secret.

[john snelling]

Try this for an easy house rule: If a left jam occurs at the begining of the next turn shuffle the maneuver cards in the deck and flip them over until a left turn appears and remove that card from the deck for the rest of the game.
1. No little gremlins come out and fix your rudder.
2. Damage is cummilative making harder to turn your aircraft has more damage occurs.
3. It is easy.

[celticgriffon]

John - I like your idea! When you finally flip a left turn card (assuming left rudder damage) do you just take out that card or all cards in the deck of that same denomination?

Cheers,
Michael

[john snelling]

Just remove that card. Sincerly, John

[MoonSylver]

I like your comment on this. It's logical and realistic. I'm going to incorporate it in our play and see how it works.

Agreed. I'd be interested in trying it as a house rule as well.

[flash]

Try this for an easy house rule: If a left jam occurs at the begining of the next turn shuffle the maneuver cards in the deck and flip them over until a left turn appears and remove that card from the deck for the rest of the game.
1. No little gremlins come out and fix your rudder.
2. Damage is cumulative making harder to turn your aircraft has more damage occurs.
3. It is easy.

Like this idea John; where the aircraft is blessed with sharper turns as well as standard ones (eg Camel/Dr1) would you consider it appropriate to remove one of each or just the sharpest or standard turn ? I'm leaning toward taking one of each !

[Kaiser]

Would be impossible to conceal this damage from your opponent.

[john snelling]

Sorry for any confusion. If a left jam occurs.
1. When the turn is over shuffle that planes maneuver deck.
2. Turn over one card at a time until a left arrow card comes up and remove that card and that card only. So you are only removing one card.
3. Place in face down on the table so it will not be seen by your opponent until the end of the game or until that plane is shot down.


No magical gremlin comes out and fixes your plane in mid-air.

[john snelling]

Dave,
Your idea is not without merit. I'm interesting in trying it. Let me know if it works out. John

[Kaiser]

Still the act that your opponent removes a card is an indication that he has receives rudder damage. You don't know what card he discards though.

[wargamer]

Sooo, if you have been stricken by the hideous no left turn and no right turn combo, and you were in a left turn... Since you can't move the rudder either way now, you are in a permanent left turn?

[john snelling]

Still the act that your opponent removes a card is an indication that he has receives rudder damage. You don't know what card he discards though.

True

[flash]

Dave,
Your idea is not without merit. I'm interesting in trying it. Let me know if it works out. John

I will try to implement it next time I get a game in - my thinking being that should it affect all turns in whichever direction is applicable ?
Keeping rudder damage secret is not so big a deal as in the standard rules, where someone could plan moves knowing you can't turn left or right for a turn, as using this method you will still be able to turn - just not so much in one particular direction (obviously keep the direction secret helps!).. hmm..

I'm now thinking to play the turn as per rules now ie jammed rudder and then inflict the 'long term' damage house rule ! This will replicate a jammed/damaged rudder & when freed up the fact it is harder to use effectively in a particular direction.

[flash]

...I'm now thinking to play the turn as per rules now ie jammed rudder and then inflict the 'long term' damage house rule ! This will replicate a jammed/damaged rudder & when freed up the fact it is harder to use effectively in a particular direction.

Tried it in my last game of Over The Trenches & it worked perfectly as above - take the jam as per rules then pull out one curve & one sharp turn, if there was one, of the required direction. Bit of a nause for a SE5a as it loses its only sharp turn but c'est le guerre !