The number of "Kills" in one day

[Fg Off Prune]

Its amazing to read just how many multiple kills pilots achieved in one day - I dont just mean one or two but 6 plus!!! These pilots as far as I can acertain were in the main German - Neinz Bar down 6 in a single day, Walter Nowotny downed 7 in a day, Erich Rudorffer 8, Willhelm Batz 15 downed & Hans Joachim Marseille an amazing 17 in a single day !!
As far as I can tell the Japanese had 2 such men - Hiromishi Shinohara managed 11 in a day while Takeo Okumura was just behind him with 10 in a single day.
Also am surprised that 2 of these aces managed to be shot down on many occassions - Erich Rudorffer was downed 16 times while Hans Joachim Marseille was shot down amazing 18 times !!!

[gully_raker]

There were quite a few "multiple" kills achieved by British & French Pilots in WW1 as well.
As for WW2 many of those multiple Kills achieved by the Germans were against far inferior Aircraft & the Brits achieved the same sort of Kills in Spits, Hurricans & even Kittyhawks against Stukas.

It also helps to remember that "Claims" do not necessarily equate to "Kills" especially in WW1.
There has been much research done over the past 15 years or so in matching Claims against Losses by such Historians as Russ Gannon, Alex Revell, Jon Guttman & many others. Do visit "the Aerodrome" & "Great War in the Air" History Forums to see the results of much of this research.

[csadn]

Its amazing to read just how many multiple kills pilots achieved in one day - I dont just mean one or two but 6 plus!!! These pilots as far as I can acertain were in the main German - Neinz Bar down 6 in a single day, Walter Nowotny downed 7 in a day, Erich Rudorffer 8, Willhelm Batz 15 downed & Hans Joachim Marseille an amazing 17 in a single day !!
As far as I can tell the Japanese had 2 such men - Hiromishi Shinohara managed 11 in a day while Takeo Okumura was just behind him with 10 in a single day.
Also am surprised that 2 of these aces managed to be shot down on many occassions - Erich Rudorffer was downed 16 times while Hans Joachim Marseille was shot down amazing 18 times !!!

First: Germans got to fly anywhere form 2-4 sorties in a day; Westerners got one.

Second: Most of those German scores are on the Eastern Front -- with all respect to any of our members from east of the Dneiper: Soviet pilots sucked, and the Germans were able to fatten their scores easily on Red Star Cannon-Fodder.

Third: As noted, there's a world of difference between "claimed", and "confirmed"; do some reading on trying to cage loss records for the War between the various sides.... Short form is: I suspect most of the records mentioned are, umm, "inflated".

Finally: I'd need to find the accounts, but I'm *pretty* sure a couple of Americans managed "ace-in-a-day" status -- I notice your list is quite uncontaminated by Americans.... :)

[FrankJamison]

David McCampbell did it twice. Seven during the Marianas Turkey shoot and nine during the Leyte Gulf operations. His wingman got six.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/cita...ccampbell.html


Stanley "Swede" Vejtasa, who collected Navy Crosses like others collect stamps, shot down seven bombers in one day while piloting a Wildcat. Even more impressive, he once shot down three Zeros.... While piloting a Dauntless.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/goe/eagle_bi...jtasa_2004.asp

[bsmith13]

William Shomo (USAAF) got seven. If I remember correctly, Alex Vraciu (USN) had a really good day too.

[Marechallannes]

Third: As noted, there's a world of difference between "claimed", and "confirmed"; do some reading on trying to cage loss records for the War between the various sides.... Short form is: I suspect most of the records mentioned are, umm, "inflated".

Sorry, can't agree with this.

There were high standarts for claiming an air victory on both sides. It was unavoidable that another pilot confirmed your air victory, and the numbers of of shot down and lost planes didn't vary much in the combat reports (I'am not talking about propaganda) of both sides. Just read a book about bombardemet operations vs. Berlin in WW II.

As I said in another thread - different sides, different theaters, different combat situations - planes and methods, etc. Think the Western pilots would have done the same under "German conditions".



Agree with point 1, 2 and the last one.

By the way: Hans-Joachim-Marseille scored all air victories vs. western pilots and planes. And he started his carrer with the Battle of Britan.

[Fg Off Prune]

Apologies to our cousins across the pond - the site i was looking at, although it did show American Aces, - no mention was made of such multiple kills in one day. Certainly no offence was intended and if any was inferred then i offer my most sincere apologies.
Drinks are on me in the Mess after Ops

[CappyTom]

Apologies to our cousins across the pond - the site i was looking at, although it did show American Aces, - no mention was made of such multiple kills in one day. Certainly no offence was intended and if any was inferred then i offer my most sincere apologies.
Drinks are on me in the Mess after Ops

None taken, I know where your heart was at. Thanks for sharing the info you found.


Tom

[Jager]

Apologies to our cousins across the pond - the site i was looking at, although it did show American Aces, - no mention was made of such multiple kills in one day. Certainly no offence was intended and if any was inferred then i offer my most sincere apologies.
Drinks are on me in the Mess after Ops

As Tom said, no offence for honestly found and given information; however, I will take a drink from you
Thanks for sharing.
Karl

[csadn]

There were high standarts for claiming an air victory on both sides. It was unavoidable that another pilot confirmed your air victory, and the numbers of of shot down and lost planes didn't vary much in the combat reports (I'am not talking about propaganda) of both sides. Just read a book about bombardemet operations vs. Berlin in WW II.

I have, which is why I suspect some of those records -- not all, necessarily -- are inflated; getting confirmation, even in the era of gun-cameras, was a pain in the neck

By the way: Hans-Joachim-Marseille scored all air victories vs. western pilots and planes. And he started his carrer with the Battle of Britan.

[nod] Tho' how much of that was his unusual tactics (for ex.: Dropping flaps to lower speed and increase maneuverability), and how much goes to his opponents' lack of tactics (P-40s in a Lufbery Circle -- save everyone a lot of time and trouble, and bail out to start with...), is a question for the ages. It's worth noting: From the sources I could find, most of his kills were against P-40s, which were noted for their lousy handling, and were used by the Desert AF more as light bombers than fighters.

[bsmith13]

"Inflated" is perhaps not the best word to use in the context of describing the phenomenon of over-claiming, since it usually implies intentionally claiming credit for more damage that one actually inflicted.

Volumes have been written about over-claiming. No air force was immune to over-claiming. As a small example, if the RAF had been correct about how many Luftwaffe aircraft they shot down during the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe would have had no aircraft to support Barbarossa. Conversely, if the Luftwaffe had been correct about how many they claimed, this conversation might be in German

While I will admit that some pilots have admitted claiming kills they didn't earn (Boyington comes to mind), most pilots were simply reporting what they saw. Air combat is chaotic. Most researchers attribute over-claiming to this chaos, rather than to any sort of desire for propaganda or self-aggrandizement.

[Marechallannes]

...It's worth noting: From the sources I could find, most of his kills were against P-40s, which were noted for their lousy handling, and were used by the Desert AF more as light bombers than fighters.

Think, you're well informed and I wonder always about you knowledge...

On the other side, your opinion is sometimes very gridlocked (festgefahren).

So your're arguing, that an air victory vs. an inferior plane and/or pilot is nothing worth? What about all the allied air victories with Spitfires, P51s, Wildcat F6, etc. vs. inferior, german or japanese planes with less trained pilots?

Or air victories WW I? (Bloody April 1917/Albatros)

I think there are facts, that we have simply to accept...

An air victory is an air victory, and I think every pilot was happy to return to his airbase/CV alive wether he fougth vs. superior or inferior planes/pilots. And the best ones, the aces, crown their sorties with air victories.

Don't matter if you shot down a "Betty" with your F4U Corsair or a P51 with a BF 109.

[csadn]

So your're arguing, that an air victory vs. an inferior plane and/or pilot is nothing worth? What about all the allied air victories with Spitfires, P51s, Wildcat F6, etc. vs. inferior, german or japanese planes with less trained pilots?

No -- simply easier to come by. When it came to opportunities to score kills in WW2, the Germans had all the advantages: They flew more sorties in a day; they were almost always outnumbered; they rarely if ever went on break, unless badly injured (whereas Western pilots would be rotated home); even at the time of the Battle of Britain, most of them had three or four years' experience, in hard training if not in actual combat (how many BoB Germans served in Spain?); and looking at the records of what they were shooting at, most of their kills were scored against "easy prey" -- bombers, attack planes, etc.

By comparison, here's the kill record for one Richard Ira Bong, USAAF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard...ictory_credits --

of 40 kills confirmed, 32 were single-engine fighters (I'm unsure how to class that "Irving" -- could have been a night-fighter, could have been a recon bird).

In short: Most people seem to think the Germans are god's gift to the battlefield, be it land, sea, or sky; and point to the number of kills they racked up as "proof" of this. To which I say "And just what were they attacking? It isn't enough to just run up numbers; there's also the matter of what one is destroying."

After all, as you said: If the Germans are that good, why is everyone here posting in ENGLISH? >:)

[Marechallannes]

In short: Most people seem to think the Germans are god's gift to the battlefield, be it land, sea, or sky; and point to the number of kills they racked up as "proof" of this. To which I say "And just what were they attacking? It isn't enough to just run up numbers; there's also the matter of what one is destroying."

Sorry, if you got the impression, that I'am singing only a hymn on German pilots.

Gareth already appologized for ignoring allied pilots in his first post.

By the way: I'am a great fan of the pacific theater in WW II, and all my special favour goes to the US armed forces, fought there. They already decided the war at Midway 1942 - great battle!

Sometimes it's only a question of numbers of destroyed tanks, bombers, etc. Look at the retreat to Dünkirchen 1940. That were not possible without loosing air superiority to the Luftwaffe.

After all, as you said: If the Germans are that good, why is everyone here posting in ENGLISH? >

That are not my words. ...and I'am shure Brad Smith didn't wrote them as serious as they sound.


-


The one thing is: I cant' leave common suggestions about dishonourable behaviour without a comment, neither about "inflated" axis air victory numbers, nor about "louzy" allied pilots in the mediterranean theatre.

The other one: Till 1945 the German Wehrmacht (with all troop parts) belongs definitely to the best armies of the world and some parts of the Wehrmacht where the best of the best.

[Marechallannes]

Checked Major Richard Ira Bong with your link.

Seems to me that he's a real fighter ace. A brave pilot who served his country well.

Think he worked hard for every air victory he achieved. I like this guy, his biography, his career, his engagement in the Pacific War, a real fighter ace!

-

...but, just a moment. Try to see him with your eyes:

Scored 9 of his 40 air victories with his excellent P38 vs. weak Nakajima Ki-43 "Oskar".

Oh my god, he shot down some japanese bombers (the japanese had only medium ones), too.

Additional with such a high number of air victories, we have to reduce this air victories by the ordinary 10 - 15 % inflated kills.

-

Doesnt' fit together?

Maybe I've got a fundamentally mistaken view...

[Rat of Vengence]

Chris, ease up a bit. We could equally apply your method to Bong's achievements; half of his kills would have been inexperienced pilots late war, the Japanese aircraft notoriously lacked armour and self-sealing fuel tanks for the most part, his aircraft had far more range, and could dictate the start/end of a fight. Does that make his achievement less? No, I don't believe so, but nor does it lessen what Hans-Joachim-Marseille and the like managed.

Dave

[richard m schwab]

Gentlemen!

I see Chuck Yeager is not mentioned? He also achieved an ace in a day status. He also was shot down and walked to Spain, then made it back to England.

One of my favorite German WW2 pilots is the late Franz Stigler. He had 27 confirmed kills form North Africa to the end of the war. He claimed two B-17 on the last day of the war which could not be confirmed! He was also shot or forced down 17 times. Including one in North Africa where he was captured and escaped!

Rich

[CappyTom]

All these pilots even the ones with little to no kills had one thing in common. They all had to go up and fight each other. Every mission could and was for many their last.
Everyone of them have my respect for they went out to battle knowing it could be their last trip and they went anyway.
We play a fun game and when we lose, we lose face a plane but not our lives.
I salute them they are all heroes.


Tom

[richard m schwab]

Tom!

You are correct! You to respect the pilots who flew the inferior planes or against superior numbers! Midway is a great case, the air defenders had nothing going for them. Obsolete fighters and bad bomber tactics. They still made offensive air strikes and do or die defense.


Rich

[bsmith13]

That are not my words. ...and I'am shure Brad Smith didn't wrote them as serious as they sound.

You are correct, I was being facetious.

One of my favorite pilot biographies is "To Fly and Fight" about Bud Anderson. I remember that he had an interesting formula where he calculated his standing with other aces based on his average kills per combat hour of flying. I don't have the specifics, but if one of you would like to write a monograph, I'm sure you could write a book (or at least a very long post) comparing average kills per combat hour if you are willing to do the research.

[csadn]

We could equally apply your method to Bong's achievements; half of his kills would have been inexperienced pilots late war, the Japanese aircraft notoriously lacked armour and self-sealing fuel tanks for the most part, his aircraft had far more range, and could dictate the start/end of a fight. Does that make his achievement less? No, I don't believe so, but nor does it lessen what Hans-Joachim-Marseille and the like managed.

Actually, that was the point I was aiming towards -- that's there's far more factors involved than Sheer Numbers to determine Greatness. (For that matter: The P-38 *wasn't* meant to be a dogfighter; it was designed to be a high-altitude bomber interceptor -- the one job it *didn't* wind up performing during the War, as the Axis never developed the ability to generate massed high-altitude bomber formations. Its effectiveness as a fighter came from its ability to concentrate its weapons fire over a long distance, where fighters with wing-mount guns had to pick a "convergence" range, and hope the target stayed there.) Should we note folks like Douglas Bader, or the Soviet pilot whose name escapes me at the moment, who flew with wooden legs due to injuries? Or the USAAF's black pilots, whose disadvantages came more from social politics than anything else?

I will admit, there is one other factor which has been causing me some annoyance of late: There is a class of person out there (tho' not here -- yet >:) )which has been trying to revise history so as to minimize, if not entirely extirpate, US involvement in one or both WWs; having to deal with Idiots like that has made me a little touchy on the topic.... :)