Ponnier M.1

[petitbilbo]

Hi there!

I'm trying (the task is almost impossible!) to get at least ONE of each plane used by the Belgian Aviation Militaire during WWI.

Right now, I'm thinking about scratch-building a Ponnier M.1.

"Having an urgent need for new fighter aircraft the Belgian authorities ordered thirty Ponnier M.1's, although this machine was rejected by the French Armée de l'Air for being too dangerous to fly.
Most Belgian pilots also refused to fly the Ponnier (of which only ten were delivered) and it was quickly withdrawn from use."

"unstable and bad in the controls"

"Nungesser flew one, once, it crashed, he broke both legs and his jaw."

Nice, plane!

This what I could find concerning stats:
Year: 1916
Engine: 1 Le Rhône rotatif 9c de 80 ch
Armament: 1 Lewis 7.7 mm MG
Max speed: 167 km/h
Cruising speed: ???
Ascending speed: ???
Max alt: ???
Autonomy: ???
Weight: 304 kg empty, 464 kg charged
Wing span: 6,18 m
Length: 5,75 m
Height: 2,30 m
Wing surface: 13,50 m2
Crew: 1

Not very much to go with, I know...

Any ideas?

in advance!

[Bluedevil]

Bilbo : SRAM does a 1/144 Ponnier with Belgian colours.. Still available at Hannants... I've been thinking about buying one myself but since that type didn't mean all that much in the war I keep postponing it...

Did you know that the Germans thought the Ponnier was a Belgian invention when they first met it up in the Air ?

Here's the link : http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/SRAM50D


The purchase of this type of aircraft was very controversial and made some heads roll... This is the aircraft that made Andre De Meulemeester have second thoughts about the HD1 : he expected the HD1 to be a fluke just like the Ponnier... luckily Willy Coppens was there to prove him wrong

[Bluedevil]

By the way there are more pictures where you found yours :

http://www.belgian-wings.be/webpages...ponnier_m1.htm

[petitbilbo]

Bilbo : SRAM does a 1/144 Ponnier with Belgian colours.. Still available at Hannants... I've been thinking about buying one myself but since that type didn't mean allthat much in the war I keep postponing it...

Did you know that the Germans thuought the Ponnier was a Belgian invention when they first met it up in the Air ?

Here's the link : http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/SRAM50D


The purchase of this type of aircraft was very controversial and made some heads roll... This is the aircraft that made Andre De Meulemeester have second thoughts about the HD1 : he expected the HD1 to be a fluke just like the Ponnier... luckily Willy Coppens was there to prove him wrong

Thanks for all this!

The thing is, though, that I find £10,50 (or 12€) plus transport a bit steep for a plane I'll play with only a few times, for fun's sake ("pour la déconnade")...
My idea is to get this one http://www.shapeways.com/model/33532...ml?gid=sg91179 and to transform it into a Ponnier M.1.

Yes, the http//:www.belgian-wings.be website is a big help for finding all the planes used by the Belgians during WW1, but it was your PM that got me started in the right direction IIRW!

Thanks for the help!

[Bluedevil]

You are welcome

[Hunter]

I never heard of this plane. Not that I'm a WWI aviation expert or anything, in fact I've just recently purchased several WWI specific history books and am currently reading and studying A World Undone which is very interesting, sorry I digress. Why was the Ponnier M.1. dangerous? What were it's fight characteristics? I like the looks of it though.

[Bluedevil]

I'll try to shed some light here...

In 1916 the Belgian Aviation Militaire found it very difficult to replace its destroyed Nieuport aircraft... France wasn't to enthousiastic to sell their fighters to Belgium as there was some political struggle going on: the French Generals were desperately trying to annex the Belgian army but our King Albert I proved to be a hurdle they were never able to take.
This left the Belgian Aviation Militaire in dire need for new aircraft so they send Commandant Tournay on a scouting trip to purchase fighter aircraft. I guess much to the man's surprise, he was able to buy 30 Ponniers M1 for a scratch... He ought to have been suspicious about that but I guess he might have been so happy to have found aircraft that this clouded his better judgement.

What he didn't know was that the ponnier nearly killed Charles Nungesser when he took one out for a test-flight : the aircraft stalled and fell down like a brick breaking nearly every bone in Nungesser's body. The joystick went straight through his jaw , dislocating it but... he lived.
After this incident every French pilot coldly refused to even enter the Ponnier which left the French with an aircraft they couldn't use. So when Tournay came looking for aircraft, not knowing this story he really was an easy target...it costed him dearly afterwards.

Jan Olieslagers did know about Nungesser and he went on a one-man crusade against the Ponnier and publicly doubted Tournay's sanity...which led to sanctions of course... But Jan held his ground and the Belgian pilots followed him.
The few Ponniers that flew only did so after substantial changes, such as an entire new rudder ( and I believe a change of engine...but I'm not sure of that ).

The Ponnier was a small and short aircraft with short wings of equal dimensions. Because of its small wing surface and underpowered 80pk Le Rhone engine it was easily stalled.

When on june 18 1916 Captain Jaquet crashed an "upgraded" Ponnier this meant the end of it : those that were left had their lower wings stripped and were send to the pilot training school in Etampes where students used them to learn how to taxi.


This is in short the story about the Ponnier...I'm afraid that there are no technical specs to be found...at least I didn't find them...

[Rabbit 3]

I found a site with some rather good photo`s.
http://www.belgian-wings.be/Webpages...ponnier_m1.htm

[petitbilbo]

Thanks Robert, but the same link had been posted by Alex on post 3 (and my own picture came from there too).

By the way, "I was born with a heart of Lothian" (metaphorically speaking).

[petitbilbo]

I'll try to shed some light here...

In 1916 the Belgian Aviation Militaire found it very difficult to replace its destroyed Nieuport aircraft... France wasn't to enthousiastic to sell their fighters to Belgium as there was some political struggle going on: the French Generals were desperately trying to annex the Belgian army but our King Albert I proved to be a hurdle they were never able to take.
This left the Belgian Aviation Militaire in dire need for new aircraft so they send Commandant Tournay on a scouting trip to purchase fighter aircraft. I guess much to the man's surprise, he was able to buy 30 Ponniers M1 for a scratch... He ought to have been suspicious about that but I guess he might have been so happy to have found aircraft that this clouded his better judgement.

What he didn't know was that the ponnier nearly killed Charles Nungesser when he took one out for a test-flight : the aircraft stalled and fell down like a brich breaking nearly every bone in Nungeser's body. The joystick went straight through his jaw , dislocating it but... he lived.
After this incident every French pilot coldly refused to even enter the Ponnier which left the French with an aircraft they couldn't use. So when Tournay came looking for aircraft, not knowing this story he really was an easy target...it costed him dearly afterwards.

Jan Olieslagers did know about Nungesser and he went on a one-man crusade against the Ponnier and publicly doubted Tournay's sanity...which led to sanctions of course... But Jan held his ground and the Belgian pilots followed him.
The few Ponniers that flew only did so after substantial changes, such as an entire new rudder ( and I believe a change of engine...but I'm not sure of that ).

The Ponnier was a small and short aircraft with short wings of equal dimensions. Because of its small wing surface and underpowered 80pk Le Rhone engine it was easily stalled.

When on june 18 1916 Captain Jaquet crashed an "upgraded" Ponnier this meant the end of it : those that were left had their lower wings stripped and were send to the pilot training school in Etampes where students used them to learn how to taxi.


This is in short the story about the Ponnier...I'm afraid that there are no technical specs to be found...at least I didn't find them...

Whow, Alex! You managed to put into one post everything I had found so far...
By the way, Commandant Tournay didn't get sacked, but never had to buy a plane again.

And I'm afraid that there are no more specs to be found than in my original post.
No climb rates, etc.



[Edit: this was post 666!]

[Rabbit 3]

Thanks Robert, but the same link had been posted by Alex on post 3 (and my own picture came from there too).

By the way, "I was born with a heart of Lothian" (metaphorically speaking).

OOPS! I missed that, still the pics ARE rather good.
Still searching for stats but so far nothing has turned up on the net.
Looks like its time to hit the books!

[Hunter]

Well, thank you all for this interesting thread on a little known deathtrap of an aeroplane. Enough information was given to tweak ones interest in further exploration regarding the 'rest of the story'!

[batesyboy]

According to the `complete book of FIGHTERS`
`PONNIER M.1 France
In 1915 Avions Ponnier produced the single-seat fighter,
allegedly to the designs of Emile Eugene Dupont,
who was subsequently to be responisible for the Hanriot HD1.
An unequal span single bay nominally staggered biplane`

there is a bit more text telling the story of Nuggessers crash on 29th January 1916
and the Belgians taking about eighteen examples.

The stats listed are as follows...

Max speed 104 mph at sea level (167 km/h)
Climb rate, 4.67 minutes to 3,200ft (1,000 m)
Span 20ft 3 1/2 inches (6,18 m)
Length 18ft 10 1/5th inches) (5.75m)
Wing area 145.3 sq ft (13.50 m squared)

Powered by 80hp LeRhone

Hope this helps
I have a similar card model if you would like one customised to suit....let me know

I does look a lot like the HD1 from this picture !

[petitbilbo]

OOPS! I missed that, still the pics ARE rather good.
Still searching for stats but so far nothing has turned up on the net.
Looks like its time to hit the books!

Never mind, it's the thought that counts!

(Nothing about the quote on Lothian? Snif!)

[petitbilbo]

According to the `complete book of FIGHTERS`
`PONNIER M.1 France
In 1915 Avions Ponnier produced the single-seat fighter,
allegedly to the designs of Emile Eugene Dupont,
who was subsequently to be responisible for the Hanriot HD1.
An unequal span single bay nominally staggered biplane`

there is a bit more text telling the story of Nuggessers crash on 29th January 1916
and the Belgians taking about eighteen examples.

The stats listed are as follows...

Max speed 104 mph at sea level (167 km/h)
Climb rate, 4.67 minutes to 3,200ft (1,000 m)
Span 20ft 3 1/2 inches (6,18 m)
Length 18ft 10 1/5th inches) (5.75m)
Wing area 145.3 sq ft (13.50 m squared)

Powered by 80hp LeRhone

Hope this helps
I have a similar card model if you would like one customised to suit....let me know

I does look a lot like the HD1 from this picture !

Nice!

Thanks for that!

Now the stats for WO(W/G)...

[Bluedevil]

I would like some more info about the book where you found the info.

[batesyboy]

I would like some more info about the book where you found the info.

If you Google Search
`The Complete Book Of Fighters`
It`s by William Green and Gordon Swanborough

It`s big and heavy ! you might be able to pick up a used copy from Amazon,

[Bluedevil]

Thanks for the info Lee! Didn't have that one yet! Just ordered a copy from amazon

[Linz]

I would go with stats of
Gun B
Movement J or I if you feel it could do side slips without falling out of the sky.
Damage 11
Climb rate 3
Ceiling 10 as I have found no stats I would think 4500m would pull it up for it's age.
Well that's my thoughts
Linz

[petitbilbo]

Thanks Linsay (and all the others who helped!!!)

I'll go for J I think...

So:
B J 11 (3/10)

Sounds good!

Thanks again!

Now, I'll have to build the plane...

[Mike W]

Thanks Linsay (and all the others who helped!!!)

I'll go for J I think...

So:
B J 11 (3/10)

Sounds good!

Thanks again!

Now, I'll have to build the plane...

How about converting a Shapeways Hanriot HD-1? Remove the dihedral from the top wing and clip the wings....

[petitbilbo]

I thought more about taking a M-S Bullet (also Shapeways), lowering the wing and adding a top one.

[Mike W]

Anybody know if one of the Shapeways designers is going to produce a model of the Ponnier? Since the RFC flew in the same area as the Belgium airforce, a couple would be an interesting addition to a wargame that uses a flight of DH2s vs a German flight of Fokker E.IVs, Halberstadt D.IIs, and Fokker D.IIs.

[petitbilbo]

Don't know about Shapeways, but I saw a 1/144 model from SRAM...

[Rabbit 3]

Don't know about Shapeways, but I saw a 1/144 model from SRAM...

So far the SRAM model appears to be the only 1/144 one available, still all that it seems to take is for Colinwe or Kampflieger to see Mike W`s post, get a bit of inspiration and there will be a model up on Shapeways a couple of days later.
Its almost frightening just how fast this process works.

[petitbilbo]

Yeah, I share the feeling.

Call me old fashionned or even reactionnary, but I don't like this "new-fangled technolgy".
It's changing the whole modelling hobby at a very fast pace.

(and then, there's the coarseness of the modells...)

Nope, not my cup of tea.

[john snelling]

Climb rate to 1,000 meters was 4 min 40 seconds. Armament was one Lewis 7.7mm. Ref. is French Aircraft of the First World War. Belgians ordeered 30 but was reduced to 10 some say 18. There is no evidence that they were ever used operationally by the Belgians. It looks like a great aircraft, but looks can be deceiving.

[Zoe Brain]

Did you know that the Germans thuought the Ponnier was a Belgian invention when they first met it up in the Air ?

Funny - I thought the Belgian pilots who tried flying it thought it had to be a German device designed to kill them.

[Mike W]

There is no evidence that they were ever used operationally by the Belgians. It looks like a great aircraft, but looks can be deceiving.

Volume 26.1 (Spring 2011) issue of "Over the Front" quarterly publication by the League of World War 1 Aviation Historians has an article and number of photos of the Ponnier M.1, some identified as being at the Front. The photos show several of the Ponnier with individualized markings. In addition to the typical overwing Lewis, there are several photos of Ponnier(s) with deck-mounted Lewis guns with airscrew, deflectors, and nose spinner apparantly "borrowed" from Morane Saulnier N(s).

Also, according to the article, Walter Pieters' huge new book (which I have not read) "The Belgian Air Service in the First World War" states that the Ponnier did serve at the front in the 1ere and 5ere Escadrille de Chasse.

[Bluedevil]

True...a few did fly at the front...but they were very quickly decomissioned...Any chance you could email me some scans of that article and the pictures? You made me curious

[jbmacek]

Awww man, De Neef and Le Vampire!

[petitbilbo]

True...a few did fly at the front...but they were very quickly decomissioned...Any chance you could email me some scans of that article and the pictures? You made me curious

Me too please!!!

[Max Headroom]

Custom card now available:

[petitbilbo]

Ordered an SRAM model from my FLModellingS today...

[Bluedevil]

Let me know what it looks like right out of the box
Will you?

[batesyboy]

It wouldn`t be too difficult to make up a card model of this trim looking but
Dangerous ship...
Let me know if you would like me to go ahead...

[PilGrim]

I have just got the Shapeways Ponnier and it is a beaut

Any suggestions as to what spinner to use for one of the front line Belgian planes?

[PilGrim]

[Dom S]

Oh that is nice, much as I pity any poor bugger that had to fly one....

[PilGrim]

Oh sorry - should have credited a certain Dom with the decals :-)

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Having quite a few Belgian aircraft could anyone tell me how individual aircraft were differentiated in squadrons? ie by letters/numbers/design etc

Thanks Robert, but the same link had been posted by Alex on post 3 (and my own picture came from there too).

By the way, "I was born with a heart of Lothian" (metaphorically speaking).

[Dom S]

Oddly for the most part they weren't - they often had a large squadron insignia, but machines within the squadron were usually distinguishable only by the small serial number on the tail - no big letter or number like the British etc, or flamboyant individual markings like the Germans - a few pilots used personal markings or names (eg. Nieuports "Vampire" and "Foxtrot", and Strutter "Flying Fox"), but they were the exception, not standard practice.

[predhead]

Why the decision on the Official and Unofficial Planes stats spreadsheet to give the Ponnier such a low damage rating as well as give it a K deck for maneuver? The K deck does not have an Immelman card...could this plane not perform such a maneuver? K B 6. Above it was suggested J(I) B 11. Why such a disparity?

Thanks!
Darryl

[Zoe Brain]

Why the decision on the Official and Unofficial Planes stats spreadsheet to give the Ponnier such a low damage rating as well as give it a K deck for maneuver? The K deck does not have an Immelman card...could this plane not perform such a maneuver? K B 6. Above it was suggested J(I) B 11. Why such a disparity?

Thanks!
Darryl

1. This was an aircraft that stalled very very easily, just like a very heavily damaged one. It came "pre-damaged" from the factory. Even a little extra damage would mean it was not flyable at all.

2. It was not fully aerobatic, loops, immelmans were right out. Even landing took an expert pilot. This was a death-trap. It was reasonably fast, and as long as you made turns smooth and not too tight, would not stall into an unrecoverable spin. We assumed the extra rudder area improved performance enough so a K deck, while really too good, was acceptable.

[predhead]

Thanks, Zoe!

[predhead]

To clarify...Nungesser was doing acrobatics at 200 meters in the Ponnier, so he did not leave a lot of room for error. Not a wise decision for an aircraft he had not flown before and was overall new for all pilots who might have flown it. Pilot influence being what it was, Nungesser's low altitude antics were overlooked, and the focus went to his broken bones. There are some other stories along these lines as well, where pilots degraded the Ponnier, but mostly because of the Nungesser incident. And the story of Coppens having influence in the decision that it should not be used is most likely a fabrication - Coppens was an unknown in 1916. The Ponnier was as fast as the N.17 and most likely its ratings should be a bit more favorable.
Ponnier for life!

[OldGuy59]

Not sure why the maneuver deck is K on this card, but it was what I used...



PS: The stats were from the USC.

[predhead]

Mike - I have that card downloaded, but I am not 100% certain if I buy into the stats. I know the plane was nose heavy and there were some issues in doing a loop, but again is that because a pilot not familiar with the flying characteristics made a disparaging remark and that then became the standard performance comment? As for damage points...where does the 6 even come from? It was small for certain...but how does one determine a 6?