Please feel free to comment the kind of rules you use (or the motivations why you do not use them).
you never use altitude rules
you use the rules in the rulebook
you use the rulebook rules, but modified
you use totally different rules
Use of altitude rules
Please feel free to comment the kind of rules you use (or the motivations why you do not use them).
I use the rules in the book, including the optional blind spot rule for two-seaters. It would be helpful in the next rules release, electronic or print, to consolidate the altitude rules and include with them more illustrations. Being an old gamer, I find the Q&A section of older games like Squad Leader to be very helpful - not that I am expecting or encouraging a 20 page Q&A).
I have recently been introducing altitude rules to an experienced player (just have used them at Origins myself for the first time) and we have had many a converstaion about line of site/line of fire with planes overlapping, while at the same and/or at different altitudes, with and without climb counters and a short vs long range, how this applies to tailing and aim. I am currently a bit confused abpout how aim and tailing rules impact on aircarft that are overlaping for collision and ones that are overlapping for firing purposes. I think this could be better explained in the rules during the next publication. In fact, I am going to cut, paste and edit this post to the rules section to get claification.
I try to use the rules for altitude whenever possible. It adds to the three dimensional feel to the game. Also, it really lets you see the differences in the maneuverability of all of the planes.
Andrea!
I run games at local conventions, the altitude rules are not used in introduction games. Before a game starts i ask for a show of hands to see if the altitude rules will be used. The answer is normally no. I get asked the same question concerning using altitude rules. IS THE DIVE RATE THE SAME AS THE CLIMB RATE.
Rich
I haven't played a game with altitude rules yet. Seems too confusing :/
Thank a lot for demoing the game! I also avoid altitude rules in such games.Originally Posted by richard m schwab
No, you climb of one climb counter per turn, you dive of one altitude level per turn (and fighters can do overdives) so you actually dive far quicker.
All the best!
Andrea
To me, altitude rules were only confusing until I started using them. I love the added dimension (no pun intended) they give to the game. You can dive yourself out of immediate trouble only to find yourself stuck on the floor unable to climb back up.
As stated earlier with new players we don't use them as a rule. I have found some who want to learn them right off the bat. I enjoy them as written and they do add to the game. The split S comes in handy as does the overdive when chasing dive-bombers. Great game Andrea, looking forward to the future.
Tom
We also found the rules as written confusing. Once we tried them we always use them, even with new players.
The biggest complaint is having the climb rate listed elsewhere, most would like it to be on the airplane card. We understand the game started without altitude, so no provision was made, but now with the rules in place they should be on the cards. Those not using altitude can still ignore it.
Andrea!
Thank you for the clarification! I love the game and will break it out anytime someone has an interest!
Rich
We're gong to next. In fact this Monday.
I never found the altitude rules confusing at all... I don't use 'em with kids under 15 and sometimes if me and a buddy are flying 3 or more planes each, but they take a 2 dimensional game to a 3 dimensional game and therefore highten the experience for me.
Having a lot of "quick Games " at moment so do not use altitude ,but when playing a scenario game and have more time I use the official rules .My kids picked them up fairly easy as well.
We play WoW I & II mostly after a bigger strategic bordgame.
We don't use altitude rules.
To play a flying game without altitude is like playing a U Boat game with out going underwater.
We are going to start but with the newbie players the get confused. We(I) would really like to start using them so this week I'm going to insist on thier use in games I play.
Here is the best house altitude rules: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...do=file&id=402
I've recently started to play the game and was experimenting the altitude rules. I've attached a write up of some suggested changes/clarifications.
I used altitude for the game at FloorWars, and think I would play them as a standard from now on; the one problem with them is that you can only use 1 climb card and/or 1 dive card per turn, no sustained changes in altitude. Also, all climbs/dives are straight. Now I noticed that the decks in the file sections contain climb/dive cards not with the standard decks, with turns. Are these a house rule the poster came up with, or something else?
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Karl I'm going to be trying out a new house rule;
For DoW or WoGII each player will be getting an extra speed token. One high speed with an orange dot and one slow speed with an orange dot. You can only use one climb or dive token every two cards so its the same as using the straight climb or dive but now you can climb or dive as a turn. You can still use the Immelman or split S as well. To Climb you would use the slow speed token with the orange dot and dive with a high speed token with an orange dot.
So what do you think. I guess you could use the climb counters for WoW or WoGI. Make an orange line under the arrows showing one going down and one going up. Then give each player 5 climb tokens with 2 being the actual climb and dive token. Just place one token on each of the three cards like you do with WoGII.
Any thoughts about this Karl?
Tom
When first starting out we did not use the altitude rules but once we tried em we never went back they add so much to the game.
Did not use them at first... but now they are starting to grow on me... I like them the way they are!
Ken Head - "The Cowman"
You're only given a little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it. Robin Williams
Sounds like it would be worth a try to me. I think it would make for a more fluid & dynamic game without over-complicating things.Karl I'm going to be trying out a new house rule;
For DoW or WoGII each player will be getting an extra speed token. One high speed with an orange dot and one slow speed with an orange dot. You can only use one climb or dive token every two cards so its the same as using the straight climb or dive but now you can climb or dive as a turn. You can still use the Immelman or split S as well. To Climb you would use the slow speed token with the orange dot and dive with a high speed token with an orange dot.
So what do you think. I guess you could use the climb counters for WoW or WoGI. Make an orange line under the arrows showing one going down and one going up. Then give each player 5 climb tokens with 2 being the actual climb and dive token. Just place one token on each of the three cards like you do with WoGII.
Any thoughts about this Karl?
Tom
Your right Cowman the rules are fine as is but I can't stop thinking of ways to tweak things. I stated earlier in this thread I enjoy the altitude rules and it adds to the game.
Mind is always tick tick ticking away
Tom
Tom; I think I'll have to play them before commenting. I haven't played enough DOW (which you know, as you keep twitting me aboutKarl I'm going to be trying out a new house rule;
For DoW or WoGII each player will be getting an extra speed token. One high speed with an orange dot and one slow speed with an orange dot. You can only use one climb or dive token every two cards so its the same as using the straight climb or dive but now you can climb or dive as a turn. You can still use the Immelman or split S as well. To Climb you would use the slow speed token with the orange dot and dive with a high speed token with an orange dot.
So what do you think. I guess you could use the climb counters for WoW or WoGI. Make an orange line under the arrows showing one going down and one going up. Then give each player 5 climb tokens with 2 being the actual climb and dive token. Just place one token on each of the three cards like you do with WoGII.
Any thoughts about this Karl?
Tom), so I think I need more exposure (11-DEC-11?).
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
I use the altitude rules occasionally. I like them the way they are.
Same here Raege,and I'd like to go one step further and comment on the pegs vs the altitude "disk", or an altitude counter placed on the base in lieu of using the pegs. The pegs add that little extra visual perk for players, especially new players, that makes it readily evident at a glance that planes are at different altitude levels.
We tried using an altitude counter, placed on the base, to track altitude to see if it made not fiddling with the pegs a little easier. Not only did using the counters take away the visual aspect that makes the game appealing to simply look at, but the counters were more disruptive to the flow of the game than using the pegs! With all the planes on the table using the same amount of pegs, there was a constant "What altitude is this plane at?" and so on, going on in the game.
With the pegs, the game is at it's maximum visual appeal, and we discovered that the time spent adding and subtracting pegs was worth the time spent for the other players. You could take a quick glance at the table and in an instant take in the situation without having to go to each plane to see what the altitude counter on it was, then trying to remember which plane was at which altitude.
Last edited by kaufschtick; 12-13-2011 at 10:37.
Couldn't agree more!
I'm with Rob on the use of altitude pegs/sticks rather than markers; they make a game visually 3-D, and while it can be a bit fiddly, gives a much more easily interpreted (and visually pleasing) display, especially of you're using gimbal mounts to show roll and pitch.
BofB
Last edited by Baldrick62; 12-15-2011 at 15:32. Reason: Sp
I've not been here on the boards lately, forgive me for asking, but where can I find the gimble mounts?
Rob, the gimbals are available from Herr Oberst http://www.aerodromeaccessories.com/ they are worth picking up just for the visual aspect. there are several different mounting methods.
Thanks Tommy, I was just tracking them down. I am really interested, but I have a question about mounting them for anyone who is knowledgable on this subject.
I went 1/144 scale for the WWII version, and I have currently about 175 WWII planes. Mounting a ball bearing to the undersides of the planes is a no-go for me. I have at least another 60+ planes unbuilt in addition to the above planes, and I really don't want to cut off the pegs and glue ball bearings to all those planes.
In addition, some of the bombers are quite large, especially the 4 engine ones, and I'm not sure the ball bearing would hold them steady. Most of the twin engine planes, like the Mossie, are fairly large in 1/144 scale...and come to think of it, some of the single engine planes are pretty big! The Swordfish I have are fairly large, as are the TBF Avengers, Japanese Grace & Jill torpedo bombers and Il-2 Sturmovicks. Even my 21st Century P-47's are fairly hefty.
But the modify-a-flight-peg seems interesting. I'm kinda looking at, what appears to be, a few different approaches to doing this, any thoughts out there?
I wouldn't mind scarificing a few pegs to get the fantastic visual appeal of gimbles though.
Last edited by kaufschtick; 12-13-2011 at 11:19.
I use the modify-a-peg method myself so I can switch. I use fine sand paper to rough up the ball bearing a bit to keep it steady.
So Karl how did you like altitude with DoW? It was great having you down. Wish you could have stayed for a beer. Maybe next time.Tom; I think I'll have to play them before commenting. I haven't played enough DOW (which you know, as you keep twitting me about
Karl
Tom
I like the altitude rules maybe the next time you can go over the tweaks Tom
I definately think altitude is the way to play the game. I wouldn't mind "dirtying" the play up with some chrome, though. Certainly, using the extended ceiling rules would be good.
I'll try to allow for "beer time" the next time we come out. Maybe New Years in Columbus?
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Sounds good Karl. What chrome are you thinking about?
Tom
Well, rather than have a climb rate equal the number of climb cards to the next level, have it equal an actual altitude increase. More bookeeping involved. So that a plane with a climb rate of 3, will go from 2.0 to 2.3.
Also manuvers while climbing or diving. A bonus speed for the card after a dive. Different dive rates. Etc.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
I suggested something like this a while back; if you like, I can send you the details. (Personally, I loathe the altitude rules as-written, since I cannot simply look at a piece and know immediately what its altitude is.)
I'm not good enough at the 2d version yet. The number of times that random card drawing has defeated me I'd ridiculous. So currently, no altitude.
Agreed Alan never play without them as the add to much fun. Though for clarities sake we stick with the rules from the rule book then there are no arguments!
When I had the original W0W without minis I didn't play them - fiddling with chits and having to check someone else's board across the table broke the rhythm of the game.
Now that I've got minis I am thinking about using them again - but this introduces another element of fiddling around with altitude pegs.
The custom bases from AA look to be ideal solution though - all the bookkeeping on the model, in plain sight for everyone, and you can choose whether or not to fiddle with the pegs. The main issue with the AA bases is that in the month or so I've been looking at them, there haven't been the ones I want in stock.
WGS - simple altitude rules at
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-Rules-for-WGS
In dogfights, cllimbs go up a peg, dives go down up to 2. Immelmans go up/down a peg. Everything has an effective climb of 6 in dogfights.
You can also do sustained climbs - that's where aircraft have different climb rates, not in furballs. Only happens when enemy aren't nearby.
I haven't played enough, using the basic rules, so I don't complicate things with Altitude. That being said, I went through some effort to snag a copy of Burning Drachens to get the altitude cards for my first 8 maneuver decks (Thanks Rick57 for making that happen).
However, on almost all the rules or guides here, I keep seeing that Immelmann turns gain altitude, when the WWI version did not. Are people confusing the half loop maneuver for an Immelmann? Or am I out to lunch?
Even this thread - Basic successive maneuvers in 2D schemes - seems to imply that a climb counter gets added to the plane, but the diagrams used show that the aircraft is coming out at the same (approximate) altitude. I suppose, for me, it would be the player that would choose whether a climb or drop in altitude was intended. No counter if he wants to come out level with the target (if he was level before the turn), or add (or subtract) if he intended a half-loop, or a split-S.
And I haven't seen too much for rules on the Maneuver Decks in our Files section with the climbing/diving turns. Where do they come in, as I can see those in dogfights better than just straight climbs and dives.
Then, again, the point is moot, if we just don't use altitude rules, and do the "Flat Earth" thing.
Mike
The rules as written say that there are 2 types of reversal.
1) Split S - stall, reversal, straight, losing a climb counter;
2) Immelman - straight, reversal, straight, optionally gaining a climb counter.
A common change is to split this "Immelman" into 2 different maneuvers - a half-loop, and an Immelman. However, this is a house rule.
Split-S "By the book"
The no-height-gain Immelman "By the book"
And the new "Half-loop-up" which replaces the height-gaining Immelman
Mike you don't get a whole altitude after executing Immelman, just a climb counter. You loose one climb counter after you have executed Split-S (although loosing a whole level would make sense). The only way to loose the whole level is to dive or overdive (two levels). You can't gain a level at once (i am not counting the end of sharp/vertical bombing), you have to climb counter by counter.
The climb counters are weird units that say a little bit about your altitude (or say an altitude sub-level between the actual altitude levels) as well as about the direction your nose is pointing at. It might get a bit confusing.
EDIT1: Yes you get a climb counter even after WWI Immelman, although you really haven't gained anything. That part is a bit weird. It makes sense in WWII, where you do a half-loop-up, by which you get a sub-level for sure.
EDIT2: Zoe that house rule makes now perfect sense to me, i didn't get the reason for it before
EDIT3: In our group we play WWI only without altitudes, because the 3 card planning system and the bad climb rate of the WWI airplanes can make the 3D environment very player unfriendly. If you guess your opponents plans wrong in 3D, you get screwed big time and the game lasts for too long.
On the other hand we play WWII almost always with altitude rules, and i love it. We were shy to play altitudes first for the same reason Mike states, but after we tried out, there is no way back. The games are little longer, but very exciting.
Last edited by Lino22; 04-06-2013 at 01:15.
The "simple altitude rules" also involve pegs being devalued - 1 peg difference = no effect on firing, 2 pegs = half effect, 3+ pegs = no firing. So even if you guess wrong, you can correct it pretty quickly. Unless the enemy uses overdives to run away.
That sounds good. Is there anything else i should know? I would like to try altitudes with WWI.
I would make the comment, as someone just coming into the game, that the altitude rules look like the most confusing part of the game.
Moving and shooting? Easy. But adding that third dimension seems a big step. I take onboard what people say, however, that once they start playing that way, it's hard to go back.
If the altitude difference is more than a peg away, give yourself plenty of time to play. With the given climb rates, it can take awhile for lower-level planes to rise to the occasion. You cannot always assume higher level planes will automatically dive whenever they have the chance.
If you play the basic game several times, and then the advanced a few times, you will find the altitude rules nothing to trouble over in terms of complexity. The first time we played with them was at a local scramble. We jumped in, and after the first game, realized we were not thinking about the mechanics much at all. We're still learning about the strategy and tactics of altitude, but the mechanics, like most of WoG, becomes quite intuitive.
I haven't used them "yet". I probably will once I get more used to the game.
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