Use of altitude rules

[Zoe Brain]

I agree.

Two reasons I don't like the "1 up, 2 down" rules;
a) it is much too easy to quickly regain lost altitude
b) all planes climb at the same rate

That's why there are "continuous climb" rules, that differentiate between aircraft with different climb rates.
Essentially, these rules "devalue" pegs so they represent 60 ft or so, the same as the ground scale. About 1/6 of the standard rules. The same as a "climb counter", but with a visual representation, and a CC representing the same thing for all aircraft.

An aircraft with climb rate 2 climbs 30 ft/sec, or about 2000 ft/min.

There are now "continuous dive" rules too. Over a 3-card turn, a Spad XIII can dive 12 pegs vertically - though less initially, and needs to pull out in a normal dive afterwards. Don't try it if at too low an altitude, or splat... meanwhile a Nieuport 17 that tries diving like that can do so - but no more than 6 without the wings falling off in any pullout.

Continuous climbs and dives aren't used tactically in a dogfight, but to climb to a position of advantage, and to pounce on victims far below.

With a peg representing 60 ft, a 6000 ft altitude difference is 100 pegs. A bomb will drop one peg over 1 card, then another 2 the next, then another 3 the next etc.

[Flying Helmut]

That's why there are "continuous climb" rules, that differentiate between aircraft with different climb rates.
Essentially, these rules "devalue" pegs so they represent 60 ft or so, the same as the ground scale. About 1/6 of the standard rules. The same as a "climb counter", but with a visual representation, and a CC representing the same thing for all aircraft.

An aircraft with climb rate 2 climbs 30 ft/sec, or about 2000 ft/min.

There are now "continuous dive" rules too. Over a 3-card turn, a Spad XIII can dive 12 pegs vertically - though less initially, and needs to pull out in a normal dive afterwards. Don't try it if at too low an altitude, or splat... meanwhile a Nieuport 17 that tries diving like that can do so - but no more than 6 without the wings falling off in any pullout.

Continuous climbs and dives aren't used tactically in a dogfight, but to climb to a position of advantage, and to pounce on victims far below.

With a peg representing 60 ft, a 6000 ft altitude difference is 100 pegs. A bomb will drop one peg over 1 card, then another 2 the next, then another 3 the next etc.

But all that lot, added to the "1 up 2 down" rules, makes for more complications, and more things to remember, than the game rules as written!
And you have to leave the fight entirely to take advantage of your superior climb rate, hoping your wingmen will survive until you are ready to rejoin the furball.

I can see that some may well prefer this method, but I'm afraid I don't: it's the rules-as-written for me whenever possible.

[Eris Lobo]

Regarding the CANCON rules ...

If a SPAD XIII does a straight-climb-straight, does it get six climb counters, which it exchanges for six pegs? I know that sounds weird, but that's how the continuous climb rules seem to me. And can the SPAD keep up that three-card routine turn to turn, rapidly out climbing everybody around him (except for the other similarly agile planes in play)? If that's the case, the game could quickly become one where there are some planes precariously balanced on stacks of pegs climbing up a dozen or more above the table, while other planes remain only a few pegs high.

Also, the one-sheet summary doesn't mention the "altitude level two" landing rule change, or that injured pilots have to fly straight each turn Which version of the CANCON rules is correct? (FYI, my hubby and I don't like the CANCON changes to the landing rules and pilot-injury rules, but I still wanted to ask about them. We also think crew damage should be a 50/50 chance between pilot and observer, not a 2/3 chance of hitting the observer, as presented in the CANCON rules. All the other proposed rules seem quite intriguing, however! )

--Eris

[Zoe Brain]

Regarding the CANCON rules ...

If a SPAD XIII does a straight-climb-straight, does it get six climb counters, which it exchanges for six pegs?

It gets 6 climb counters - but its climb rate is 2 - so exchanges 2 climb counters for each peg.

And can the SPAD keep up that three-card routine turn to turn, rapidly out climbing everybody around him (except for the other similarly agile planes in play)?

Yes. As can a Dr.I, a SSW D.III etc.

It's used to gain a height advantage, but can't be used in a dogfight. The tactic is to get well away from enemy, climb to height, come back in, then pounce when you see an opening. Boom n Zoom.

Climb rates are important only when doing smooth, continuous climbs at optimal speed and angle of attack. In a dogfight, you're doing "break" maneuvers, radical tactical changes, and how well your aircraft climbs under perfect conditions doesn't signify - you're trading speed for height at high AoA.

[Zoe Brain]

Also, the one-sheet summary doesn't mention the "altitude level two" landing rule change, or that injured pilots have to fly straight each turn Which version of the CANCON rules is correct? (FYI, my hubby and I don't like the CANCON changes to the landing rules and pilot-injury rules, but I still wanted to ask about them. We also think crew damage should be a 50/50 chance between pilot and observer, not a 2/3 chance of hitting the observer, as presented in the CANCON rules. All the other proposed rules seem quite intriguing, however! )

Latest and greatest is version 4 at http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=2145

The 1-page summary is a summary of a summary, and should perhaps be deleted.

[Nightbomber]

All these ideas make me sometimes think that alitude rules (that really slow down the game), are not "user friendly" and are subject to modifications by Forumers/Professionals like Zoe, need some reform/tweaking to:
1) make them easier to manage,
2) not to slow down the game that much/make the game more "action packed", even at the cost of historical accuracy.
Has any of you ever tried Angels 20/Bandits High rules with built in altitude? IMHO, they beat WoG altitude rules black and blue.

[fast.git]

Has any of you ever tried Angels 20/Bandits High rules with built in altitude? IMHO, they beat WoG altitude rules black and blue.

I've not played this, Andy... in what way(s) are the A20 rules superior to WoG? Can they be ported over to this system?

[fast.git]

Latest and greatest is version 4 at http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=2145

Much appreciated, Zoe. Thank you!

[Nightbomber]

I've not played this, Andy... in what way(s) are the A20 rules superior to WoG? Can they be ported over to this system?

It is a hex based system wity 1:100 cool looking minis on gimbal mounts included.
You can find more on BGG.

[Nightbomber]

And here you may find a kinda comparison of mine, Chris.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-on-the-market

[fast.git]

And here you may find a kinda comparison of mine, Chris.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-on-the-market

Thanks, Andy. Thought I'd remembered a thread something like that... I'll have to take a closer look.

[diceslinger]

That's why there are "continuous climb" rules, that differentiate between aircraft with different climb rates.
Essentially, these rules "devalue" pegs so they represent 60 ft or so, the same as the ground scale. About 1/6 of the standard rules. The same as a "climb counter", but with a visual representation, and a CC representing the same thing for all aircraft.

An aircraft with climb rate 2 climbs 30 ft/sec, or about 2000 ft/min.

There are now "continuous dive" rules too. Over a 3-card turn, a Spad XIII can dive 12 pegs vertically - though less initially, and needs to pull out in a normal dive afterwards. Don't try it if at too low an altitude, or splat... meanwhile a Nieuport 17 that tries diving like that can do so - but no more than 6 without the wings falling off in any pullout.

Continuous climbs and dives aren't used tactically in a dogfight, but to climb to a position of advantage, and to pounce on victims far below.

With a peg representing 60 ft, a 6000 ft altitude difference is 100 pegs. A bomb will drop one peg over 1 card, then another 2 the next, then another 3 the next etc.

I think I will be trying these rules out. I have long been on the fence with altitude. It doesn't seem to add much, only extend the game in a "cat and mouse" fashion. However, what you said here Zoe changes my mind. You have added realistic climb rates, which the rules as written don't seem to have. Climbing and diving seem responsive with your rules at first glance, and more importantly tactically viable tools. You can climb to prepare for an attack, or dive suddenly to get out of trouble. Yep, these look nice.

[Eris Lobo]

[QUOTE=Zoe Brain;360455]

Regarding the CANCON rules ... If a SPAD XIII does a straight-climb-straight, does it get six climb counters, which it exchanges for six pegs? I know that sounds weird, but that's how the continuous climb rules seem to me. And can the SPAD keep up that three-card routine turn to turn, rapidly out climbing everybody around him (except for the other similarly agile planes in play)? If that's the case, the game could quickly become one where there are some planes precariously balanced on stacks of pegs climbing up a dozen or more above the table, while other planes remain only a few pegs high.

It gets 6 climb counters - but its climb rate is 2 - so exchanges 2 climb counters for each peg.
It's used to gain a height advantage, but can't be used in a dogfight. The tactic is to get well away from enemy, climb to height, come back in, then pounce when you see an opening. Boom n Zoom.

To quote the latest version of the CANCON rules, posted today: "Continuous Climb – Straight – Climb – Straight - Place 2 “climb counters” on each of the 3 cards. When you've accumulated enough climb counters (varying from 2-6 depending on aircraft type) trade them in for 2 pegs increase in altitude. As soon as you cease doing consecutive continuous climbs, discard all remaining climb counters."

Note that it says: "When you've accumulated enough climb counters (varying from 2-6 depending on aircraft type) trade them in for 2 pegs increase in altitude."

(I can only assume that "enough climb counters" means "the standard amount of climb counters needed for a particular plane to climb one altitude.)

Therefore, it seems to that "enough climb counters" for a SPAD XIII is two climb counters, and so it gets two climb pegs for every two climb counters -- meaning six climb counters gets six pegs while performing a Continuous Climb. Am I right?

When can a continuous climb be stopped, by the way? Does the complete set of all three cards "straight-climb-straight" need to be performed to get any benefit? Or can a SPAD XIII put down Straight-Climb-Straight one turn, get six pegs, then put down the next turn a Straight-Climb-"anything else", and get two pegs for the first two cards because they were part of a continuous-climb sequence?

To further make sure I understand how it works ... if a Fokker E.III did a continuous climb, it would get two climb counters per turn, for a total of six, allowing it to get two additional altitude pegs at the end of the turn. If a Zepp. Staaken did a continuous climb, it would get six counters at the end of the turn, and would have to do another continuous climb sequence the next turn to get the remaining two counters it needed for an altitude increase.

In the case of both the E.III and the Staaken, it seems the more logical choice would be to use a normal climb card once per term during two different turns, as that wouldn't restrict either plane to performing a rigid series of straight maneuvers. Or did I miss something?

Thanks for the help!

-- Eris

[Marechallannes]

We play WoW I & II mostly after a bigger strategic bordgame.

We don't use altitude rules.

I have to correct my statement from 2011.

We use the regular altitude rules for WGS games most of the time.


To keep the game intersting we often reduce the altitue to a max. of Level 1 - 5 or do not allow heavy bombers to change altitude before they drop the bombload.


One of the bigger problems is the bookkeeping of the altitude changes. Some Players simply forget in the heat of the battle to adjust the altitude level. So a host has to pay more attention.

I really have to try the WGS app from Ares Games for gaming.

[CappyTom]

Now do these altitude rules work for WWII? I like having the speed tokens with an orange dot on them. The white arrow with an orange dot is a climb and the blue arrow with an orange dot is a dive. Both climbing or diving only one token not a peg. Still working on the over dive with these new house rules. LOL

Thomas

[Zoe Brain]

[QUOTE=Eris Lobo;360496]

To quote the latest version of the CANCON rules, posted today: "Continuous Climb – Straight – Climb – Straight - Place 2 “climb counters” on each of the 3 cards. When you've accumulated enough climb counters (varying from 2-6 depending on aircraft type) trade them in for 2 pegs increase in altitude. As soon as you cease doing consecutive continuous climbs, discard all remaining climb counters."

Originally it was 1 climb counter per card, trading in for 2 pegs. I soon realised that 2 CCs per card, then trading in for 1 peg, was simpler. So it's a cut'n'paste error.

It should be 2CCs per card, then trade in X(climb rate) CCs for a peg at the earliest opportunity. Cease a continuous climb, and you lose all remaining counters.

This means that a plane with a climb rate of 6 goes up 1 peg in a continuous climb - the same as a tactical climb. Those with climb rates over 6 can't do tactical climbs. There's no way a Gotha could zoom up 60 ft in 6 secs (ie over a 3 card turn).

In practice... it's rare for continuous climbs to be used at all. Usually when fighters climb to altitude to go against 2 seaters above them, or when aircraft separated in a dogfight following someone down - who may be "shamming" or may be out of control - so they can rejoin the furball 8 pegs or so above them. About 90% of games will only use tactical climbs - but the option is there for those with high climb rates to chase down enemy attempting to escape.

90% of the time, "climb goes up 1, dive goes down by 2" is all that's needed.

[Eris Lobo]

So to make sure I understand ...

Climb rate for example aircraft;
Plane A: 2
Plane B: 3
Plane C: 4

All three planes execute the three-card "continuous climbing" maneuver.

Card phase 1: "A" goes up a peg in height. "B" and "C" receive two climb counters each.

Card phase 2: "A" goes up another peg. "B" receives two climb counters, trades in three for a height peg, and keeps one for the next card phase. "C" receives two more climb counters, and trades all four for a height peg.

Card phase 3: "A" goes up a third peg in height. "B" receives two climb counters, and trades them in with the one that had been saved, and is given a second height peg in exchange. "C" receives two climb counters, which are not enough for a second height peg.

If "C" does not continue with another Continuous Climb set of maneuvers, he will lose the two unused climb counters. If "C" does, however, immediately conduct another three-card continuous-climb maneuver, he will get two more climb counters each coming card phase, which, when added to the two climb counters "C" already has, will provide "C" with eight climb counters, for two more height pegs.

(FYI, if that final paragraph isn't an accurate interpretation of the continuous-climb rules, then I don't understand why the maneuver would ever benefit any plane with a climb rate greater than three. And even if my understanding of the rules is correct, I don't see how it would ever benefit any aircraft with a climb rate of five or higher.)

I think that's clear as mud, right?

--Eris

[Eris Lobo]

Now for my own suggestion for improving the altitude rules ...

I discussed the CANCON rules and other proposals with my husband this week, and his major complaint was that, although he agrees the altitude rules have problems, he doesn't want to learn a new set of changes to a game he's otherwise happy with. So with that in mind, I present the ultra-simple, easy-to-remember, all encompassing altitude fix!

1) The "Height Control" skill is a universal skill known by all normal (non-rookie) pilots. Otherwise, rules for diving remain unchanged from the official rules.
2) An aircraft can play as many consecutive "climb" cards as it wishes without invoking the "consecutive steep maneuver" penalty. The climb cards have to be played in an unbroken sequence to receive the benefit. In all other ways, rules for climb cards remain unchanged from the official rules.
2a) Suggestion: To allow for the play of multiple climb cards per aircraft -- (a) the players should agree upon a "climb" indicator token (such as a small coin) -- (b) the climb card for each aircraft should be removed from its maneuver deck and placed nearby for reference -- (c) three of the climb marker tokens should be supplied to each aircraft. As each of the three maneuver cards are laid down for each aircraft at the start of a game turn, a climb token is secretly placed underneath any or all of the cards, as desired by each aircraft's player. When each card is revealed during a turn phase, the hidden token is revealed as well. If the token is face up, the aircraft's climb card is used as its maneuver for that phase, and the maneuver card that had been laid down is ignored. If the token is revealed to be face down, the token is ignored, and the played maneuver card that had covered it is used normally.

Very simple, and (I hope) a very elegant fix. What do y'all think?

-- Eris

[Zoe Brain]

So to make sure I understand ...
I think that's clear as mud, right?

You got it right.
Those aircraft with a climb rate of 5 get a little benefit - enough so they can outclimb giants over a long period. Over 15 cards they get to climb 6 not 5.
Note that in the rules as written, over 15 cards they get to climb 1 in total. Which means aircraft with low climb rates effectively never climb in a game.

[Zoe Brain]

Very simple, and (I hope) a very elegant fix. What do y'all think?

How do you deal with half-loops, split-S, Immelman, overdive?

[Nicola Zee]

Now for my own suggestion for improving the altitude rules ...

I discussed the CANCON rules and other proposals with my husband this week, and his major complaint was that, although he agrees the altitude rules have problems, he doesn't want to learn a new set of changes to a game he's otherwise happy with. So with that in mind, I present the ultra-simple, easy-to-remember, all encompassing altitude fix!

1) The "Height Control" skill is a universal skill known by all normal (non-rookie) pilots. Otherwise, rules for diving remain unchanged from the official rules.
2) An aircraft can play as many consecutive "climb" cards as it wishes without invoking the "consecutive steep maneuver" penalty. The climb cards have to be played in an unbroken sequence to receive the benefit. In all other ways, rules for climb cards remain unchanged from the official rules.
2a) Suggestion: To allow for the play of multiple climb cards per aircraft -- (a) the players should agree upon a "climb" indicator token (such as a small coin) -- (b) the climb card for each aircraft should be removed from its maneuver deck and placed nearby for reference -- (c) three of the climb marker tokens should be supplied to each aircraft. As each of the three maneuver cards are laid down for each aircraft at the start of a game turn, a climb token is secretly placed underneath any or all of the cards, as desired by each aircraft's player. When each card is revealed during a turn phase, the hidden token is revealed as well. If the token is face up, the aircraft's climb card is used as its maneuver for that phase, and the maneuver card that had been laid down is ignored. If the token is revealed to be face down, the token is ignored, and the played maneuver card that had covered it is used normally.

Very simple, and (I hope) a very elegant fix. What do y'all think?

-- Eris

What you've come up with using the 'Climb Indicator Token' is not dissimilar to the 'Pitch Chip' solution.
Rather than a coin, have 3 blank chip and 3 chips labelled climb and 3 chips labelled dive
Place one chip face down on each movement card.
A card with a climb pitch chip is a climb.
A card with a dive pitch chip is a dive.

Ironically although I use this system I don't use it for turning climbs but for turning dives and multiple dives.
For me - as I play middle and late WW1 - I find the official climb rules OK - not great but workable.
But for me dives should produce speed and using this system planes can do multiple dives.
If you play WW1 PM me and I'll email you my house rules.

[Eris Lobo]

How do you deal with half-loops, split-S, Immelman, overdive?

The rules for those maneuvers, and everything else in the R&A book, remain the same. Like I said, my fix is super easy to implement!

(And, actually, as discussed before, the R&A rulebook doesn't cover a WWI Immelmann accurately. I could have added something saying an Immelmann doesn't give you a climb counter, but I wanted to be as absolutely simple as possible.)

-- Eris

[Von Warren]

At my place we do not use altitude if a fast game is wanted. When we do use altitude, we simplify it. A climb card takes you up one peg, a dive card drops you a peg. The climb rate is the number of non stress cards you must play after a climb before you can climb again. Simple , fun and easy, also very 3 dimensional. Makes you feel like you are climbing and diving in a real dogfight.

[milcoll73]

At my place we do not use altitude if a fast game is wanted. When we do use altitude, we simplify it. A climb card takes you up one peg, a dive card drops you a peg. The climb rate is the number of non stress cards you must play after a climb before you can climb again. Simple , fun and easy, also very 3 dimensional. Makes you feel like you are climbing and diving in a real dogfight.

i like that simplified version!

[hokusai]

At my place we do not use altitude if a fast game is wanted. When we do use altitude, we simplify it. A climb card takes you up one peg, a dive card drops you a peg. The climb rate is the number of non stress cards you must play after a climb before you can climb again. Simple , fun and easy, also very 3 dimensional. Makes you feel like you are climbing and diving in a real dogfight.

I like this idea.
Can you dive right after a climb card?
Can you climb right after a dive card?
Do you re-start counting the climb rate after a stress card or is it the total of all non-stress cards since the latest climb?

There are so many altitude rules variants discussed. A sticky note with a summary to choose from would be helpful.

[Teaticket]

To help make altitude more active in the game my simplified altitude rules are to just have the climb card equal 2 climb increments. The rest stays the same. With this you can climb much faster and the planes still have their differences. No real rule changes and only one simple new thing to remember.

[Stumptonian]

To help make altitude more active in the game my simplified altitude rules are to just have the climb card equal 2 climb increments. The rest stays the same. With this you can climb much faster and the planes still have their differences. No real rule changes and only one simple new thing to remember.

I think I'll give that a shot in the BoB campaign.

[Bobsalt]

We are going to start but with the newbie players the get confused. We(I) would really like to start using them so this week I'm going to insist on thier use in games I play.

Speaking as someone who had to use altitude rules the first three or four times I played, I would suggest starting out new players with altitude rules from the very beginning. They don't add that much complexity, and if they use them from the start I think it just becomes part of the process of learning a new game. After using them in my first games I was actually annoyed the first time I played a game where they didn't use altitude.

[Doug]

At my place we do not use altitude if a fast game is wanted. When we do use altitude, we simplify it. A climb card takes you up one peg, a dive card drops you a peg. The climb rate is the number of non stress cards you must play after a climb before you can climb again. Simple , fun and easy, also very 3 dimensional. Makes you feel like you are climbing and diving in a real dogfight.

I have got to admit I have stuck with the climbing rules as per the book, but am willing to give something different a go, so I like this idea the only difference is that I will use is 2 climb cards to go up 1 peg as climbing is always slower. This will be good for the lads in the club who don't know the rules well. Thanks

[Пилот]

We tried a bit different simplification. All planes have the same climb rate (very slow climber may be given worse rate if necessary) of 3. But, planes with better climb rate always gain +1 for shooting from above if both firer and its target are at the same height and both have (or both don't have) climb tokens. Very important: we always count situation bonus as damage, never mind if it applies with 0 damage or not.

I am supporting combining all possible bonuses - rewarding good flying is a must. But that's for another topic

[gutland]

Using altitude rules as written is a standard for my group. It would be strange without them , somehow "flat" game
Limiting ALT range to 1-4, which is RAW option.