WoW Point System...

[Pseudotheist]

So 4 to 1 for 1916 vs 1918 aircraft, and roughly 1 to 1 with observations planes vs fighters. While not a perfect balance, it does seem to work out. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Explosion Card is the great equalizer!

Interesting... So you posit that 1 Snipe has a decent chance against 4 Eindekkers? Interestingly, adding the explosion (or, more properly, not removing it) would seem to favor the Eindekkers, since if it comes up, either there's still 3 Eindekkers to deal with, or the Snipe is toast.

[Charlie3]

Interesting... So you posit that 1 Snipe has a decent chance against 4 Eindekkers? Interestingly, adding the explosion (or, more properly, not removing it) would seem to favor the Eindekkers, since if it comes up, either there's still 3 Eindekkers to deal with, or the Snipe is toast.

Ah but don't forget that the optional rules state that if you are using more than 4 aircraft you should have 2 "A" damage decks mixed together! Including the explosion in the B deck for the Eindekkers that makes 3 end of airplane cards. Besides I didn't say it would be a walk in the park for the Snipe, but with it's better maneuverability, it should be able to squeek out a win. I've played one Snipe vs 3 DR 1's and managed to win. However I only had 1 damage point left!

[Charlie3]

After re-reading my last post I forgot to mention that in a 3 or 4 vs 1 fight the advantage can go to the single fighter. Most players are aggressive and will always go for the Kill. Our group has found that this means that if a single plane can get in the middle of a group of enemy fighters they tend to get in each other's way for firing. This in turn means that you get more shots off than they do.

We recently had a lowly Neuport end up taking on 2 Dr 1's and a DIII at the end of a battle. She downed 2 before she was overcome by damage caused by being on fire. Great fun!!

[krolik]

I've found this to be true as well. Sometimes you can have too many fighters against one enemy.

[Maxdeth]

I posted up an excel sheet of points scores for planes on the 6th Dec from calculations I had worked out a month earlier. After reading this topic I do feel I had similar ideas to Col Haj in regards to adding the multiple manuever cards. I can also agree with others that multiple cards are worth less as more are added to the options but I think the point difference would be negligible compared with other factors. The biggest balancer here is that the system of laying out 3-cards to pre-plot your moves makes a very unpredictable game if all players are equally skilled. This needs to be considered and makes the aircraft closer in relative ratings than their Manuever cards, damage, guns and stats would suggest.

With the Altitude and Blind Spot rules in play an Eindecker III is worth 18pts in my spreadsheet calcs. And the Snipe is worth 26pts. With those points in mind 4 Eindeckers vs 1 Snipe is a bit unfair. An more even match would be three Eindeckers vs two Snipes.

The two-seaters are quite dangerous, simply because they can fire at aircraft around them without maneuvering into position. Thus the less manuverable British DH4 is the equal of a Fokker D.VII at 28pts simply because of its firepower. This may not be as readily apparent because the DH4 can be lethal even in the hands of a novice while a doofus pilot in the Fokker DVII will get himself killed everytime. But put a skilled pilot in the Fokker DVII and it will kill the DH4 more often because it has the capability to stay out of the DH4's firing arcs.

Regardless, points values depend on the scenario and are only ideal for furballs (massed dogfights involving scouts). A DH4 is unlikely to take part in a furball. Its mission would be on a recon or bombing run in which case it is wanting to get from one side of the table to the other. The Fokker's job would be to shoot it down. I think the fight would have to continue onto more tables before the DH4 was shot down. What would make it worse is if the attacker was an Albatross or similar slower plane. Chances are, they could never catch it and the DH4 would win everytime.

[Pseudotheist]

So, letting the maneuver decks marinate for a while. Taking a closer look at the damage decks. For starters, getting the total damage potential of each deck. The A deck deals 56 damage and has a total of 35 cards; the B deck deals 46 damage in 44 cards. In the simplest setup, ignoring special damage and removing the explosion, the A deck averages abut 1.65 points/card, and the B deck 1.07; the power ratio of the A to B deck is 1.54-1.

Using Col. Hajj's numbers, I then added in the special damages. Not including the explosion, the A deck has 42 points worth, and the B deck has 53. Adding those in, the average "damage" comes to 2.88 for the A deck, and 2.30 for the B, with the ratio being 1.251. Adding in the explosion card, the numbers become 3, 2.41, and 1.245.

However, I've mentioned that the jams really need to be accounted for as negatives. Also, looking through all of the current damage decks, I notice there is a 10 damage card. Considering this, I feel the explosion card should be valued at least as highly. I also took a look at the real value of the Fire special damage. It's effectively 3 A damage cards, plus Smoke. Including Explosion, but ignoring other special damage, A cards average to 2 damage per card, for a total of 6 damage. Add 1 for Smoke, but subtract 1 for the delayed application of damage, for 6, just like Col. Hajj's prediction. I kept the other numbers, since I didn't think they were that far off from anything I could've come up with. So, I ended up with:
Smoke: 1
Rudder: 2
Jam (g): -2
Jam (R): -3
Injured: 4
Engine: 5
Fire: 6
Explosion:11
With those numbers, the average A damage without explosion was 2.24, and 2.49 with. B was 1.63 and 1.84. And the ratios were 1.37 and 1.35.

It's interesting (to me anyway) to note that increasing the values of the Smoke, Injured, Engine, or Explosion special damage will trend the ratio to 1.26, since there are the same quantity of those damage types in both decks.

So, where does this leave us? In my opinion, the damage deck should be a point multiplier. If you're not using special damage or explosion, multiplying by 3 for A and 2 for a B gets you within a few percent of the exact ratio. Including special damage is a bit more hazy, but for my money using 4 for A and 3 for B is a very close approximation of my predicted 1.35 ratio, and a pretty simple multiplier.

For anyone who's seen the Spad XII special rules, the C/B damage ratios are 2.16 for straight damage, and 2.01 for the full deck, but that doesn't take into account the reload rule. I'd think 5 points would be a good approximation of value for that.

As always, if anyone has feedback on a better way to evaluate damage decks, I'd love to hear it.

[IRM]

My, you lot have been busy since I last checked this thread !

It'll be interesting to see the end result, but I still think the best way to balance the game is to pick appropriate aircraft for each side and perhaps add pilot traits to the less capable planes. Same way the official scenarios in the rulebooks were balanced. e.g. If the Germans have DVIIs, the allies should have SE5as and Camels. If the allies have Nieuports, the Germans should have Albatros D3s. Not a perfect balance, but close enough I'd have thought. Of course, that only works if your group has a range of models or cards available. Otherwise a points based system will be very useful.

[The Blue Baron]

So, letting the maneuver decks marinate for a while. Taking a closer look at the damage decks. For starters, getting the total damage potential of each deck. The A deck deals 56 damage and has a total of 35 cards; the B deck deals 46 damage in 44 cards. In the simplest setup, ignoring special damage and removing the explosion, the A deck averages abut 1.65 points/card, and the B deck 1.07; the power ratio of the A to B deck is 1.54-1.

Using Col. Hajj's numbers, I then added in the special damages. Not including the explosion, the A deck has 42 points worth, and the B deck has 53. Adding those in, the average "damage" comes to 2.88 for the A deck, and 2.30 for the B, with the ratio being 1.251. Adding in the explosion card, the numbers become 3, 2.41, and 1.245.

However, I've mentioned that the jams really need to be accounted for as negatives. Also, looking through all of the current damage decks, I notice there is a 10 damage card. Considering this, I feel the explosion card should be valued at least as highly. I also took a look at the real value of the Fire special damage. It's effectively 3 A damage cards, plus Smoke. Including Explosion, but ignoring other special damage, A cards average to 2 damage per card, for a total of 6 damage. Add 1 for Smoke, but subtract 1 for the delayed application of damage, for 6, just like Col. Hajj's prediction. I kept the other numbers, since I didn't think they were that far off from anything I could've come up with. So, I ended up with:
Smoke: 1
Rudder: 2
Jam (g): -2
Jam (R): -3
Injured: 4
Engine: 5
Fire: 6
Explosion:11
With those numbers, the average A damage without explosion was 2.24, and 2.49 with. B was 1.63 and 1.84. And the ratios were 1.37 and 1.35.

It's interesting (to me anyway) to note that increasing the values of the Smoke, Injured, Engine, or Explosion special damage will trend the ratio to 1.26, since there are the same quantity of those damage types in both decks.

So, where does this leave us? In my opinion, the damage deck should be a point multiplier. If you're not using special damage or explosion, multiplying by 3 for A and 2 for a B gets you within a few percent of the exact ratio. Including special damage is a bit more hazy, but for my money using 4 for A and 3 for B is a very close approximation of my predicted 1.35 ratio, and a pretty simple multiplier.

For anyone who's seen the Spad XII special rules, the C/B damage ratios are 2.16 for straight damage, and 2.01 for the full deck, but that doesn't take into account the reload rule. I'd think 5 points would be a good approximation of value for that.

As always, if anyone has feedback on a better way to evaluate damage decks, I'd love to hear it.

Two minor thoughts: the explosion should be 16 because this is the amount of damage it can make or 0 because both decks have this card. (Or haven't they?) Both jams should have the same value because there only is a difference between theese cards if you play with very special special rules. Just my two cents...

[bravofour]

Ok after reading all this my head really does hurt! I see alot of valid points though. But I do agree that if the points come out really close to each other then it becomes almost worthless unless your playing a big game. Although if a Neuport cost half the cost of a Fokker D.vII then maybe its worth it. I dont know enough yet to put a full two cents in... but ill get there and Im looking forward to were this goes.

[ldsdbomber]

Did you guys ever agree on a final one? As a newcomer to the game I'm not so caught up in minor details yet, but it would be good to have some kind of basic system because when my friends come round next week we were just planning to draw a card at random for the plane, using all the small form format ones (not the larger ones like the breguet) but it would be a shame not to be able to compensate somehow if some people end up with obviously worse or better ones. A simple points scale would allow us to use 2 planes each or run a few dogfights and change planes each time

[Rat of Vengence]

Did you guys ever agree on a final one? As a newcomer to the game I'm not so caught up in minor details yet, but it would be good to have some kind of basic system because when my friends come round next week we were just planning to draw a card at random for the plane, using all the small form format ones (not the larger ones like the breguet) but it would be a shame not to be able to compensate somehow if some people end up with obviously worse or better ones. A simple points scale would allow us to use 2 planes each or run a few dogfights and change planes each time

Here's one made by the actual designer of the game: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...Wings-of-Glory

Hope that's what you meant

Dave

[ldsdbomber]

thanks!

[celticgriffon]

Hey everyone,

I love the ideas behind this but I think the bottom line factor - i.e. the damage rating of the plane should have more weight. Their is a big difference between a plane with 12 Health and 16 Health in this game.

Equating a manouverability card to a health point is perhaps not the best idea imo.

But great work so far - i look forward to seeing the final results.

Michael

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I am sure that whatever eventually transpires about this points system will be an asset when arranging campaigns and tornaments. thanks for all your deliberations chaps.
Rob.

[ldsdbomber]

Snipe vs 3 or 4 DR1's?
why dont the DR1s all come in from different angles, ensuring at least 2 of them are shooting the **** out of the snipes tail all the time