`new` Vickers FB5 `Gunbus`
Hey folks, need a bit of help with the `guesstimation` for the good ol` gunbus...
At present i`ve got P-B-13...
P is `okish` for the speed bracket, but she was able to turn very tightly....
Toying with the idea of drawing up a new deck altogether....
comments please
Here`s a preliminary card and my Card model !
Brilliant! I've always thought that the Gunbus would be a great addition to the early war planes.
Just for reference... the stats from wikipedia:
* Crew: Two, pilot & observer/gunner
* Length: 27 ft 2 in (8.28 m)
* Wingspan: 36 ft 6 in (11.13 m)
* Height: 11 ft 0 in (3.35 m)
* Wing area: 382 ft˛ (35.5 m˛)
* Empty weight: 1,220 lb (555 kg)
* Loaded weight: 2,050 lb (930 kg)
* Powerplant: 1× Gnome Monosoupape 9-cylinder rotary engine, 100 hp (75 kW)
Performance
* Maximum speed: 70 mph (61 knots, 113 km/h) at 5,000 ft (1,520 m)
* Service ceiling: 9,000 ft (2,743 m)
* Wing loading: 5.4 lb/ft˛ (26 kg/m˛)
* Power/mass: 0.05 hp/lb (0.08 kW/kg)
* Climb to 5,000 ft (1,520 m): 16 min
Armament
* 1 × 0.303 in (7.7 mm) drum-fed Lewis gun in observer's cockpit
Based on the above information ANY of the existing decks are way too fast for the Gunbus. Speeds of planes in the 'Very Slow' range are around 144 - 150 kph. The Gunbus is significantly below that. It is going to require a Very Very Slow deck! (We do need another source for the speed, though, since for a true comparison we need to know the speed at sea level.)
After looking at all my available references....
The Maximum speed is quoted as 70mph at 5,000ft
I would suggest closer to 80mph at sea level
(According to Trenchard) Ceiling was approx 8,000ft at which it could only manage about 55mph...
However it was March the 16th 1916 when he made these remarks, by that time he wanted the Gunbus replaced.
So reading between the lines....
Ceiling 9,000ft, about 60 odd at 8,000ft
A tad slower than the BE2c ? (72mph max at 6,500ft)
Front-line service period was just over a year...
No 11 squadron was the first `fighter squadron`using just the Gunbus
They arrived in France on 25th July 1915
On the 28th July Rees and Hargreaves shot down a Fokker E1.
The Gunbus never had sufficient speed to escape a dogfight, so it had to stay and fight.
Fokker E`s attacked BE2`s at every chance, except when escorted by the Gunbus, when they kept well clear
The E1`s manouvrability was at overall matched by the Gunbus, although not able to do Immelmann (or Hammerhead) reversals
It could turn tighter, and the other advantages would have been the arc of fire, and the fact that the Lewis gun`s rate of fire
was not restricted by an interuptor gear.
Overall then, the Gunbus held it`s own, unless it ran into experienced opposition.
With all this taken in to account and Wingco` Rob has a couple of spare `P` decks
All we need is climb rate, and we can get play testing !
I`ll draw up a couple of alternate liveries...and maybe give my good friend `der Kampfflieger` a nudge....lol
Batesyboy
Last edited by batesyboy; 06-15-2011 at 12:00. Reason: addition
P is good for me. I've been wondering what to do with my five spare P decks.Originally Posted by batesyboy
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Just a quick couple of notes on the card...
The wings and tail were copied from the card model,
Also are the spinning prop` and castor oil spray and smoke a bit O.T.T ?
"The British fighter since 1912" by Francis K. Mason lists the FB.5 as having a speed of 73mph at sea level. (That's 117kph.)
They look fine to me old chap.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Short of making a whole new pack for the under 140kph aircraft, we could just make it that you have to play a short straight played with every three cards. This would not be a stall so a steep maneuver could be played.
I wonder if WOW will bring out a slower pack at sometime.
Plane looks great must build one myself (plastic scratch build course).
For an aircraft that early is 13 not to high that's the same as a Dr1 I would think 10 11 at the most.
Climb rate of 5
Well that's my thoughts
Linz
new cards for play testing
Piccy`s please Linz !!!!
With the Gunbus we`re dealing with one of those grey areas, certainly we`re dealing with an almost mythical aircraft !
According to the Axis, every pusher was a `Vickers`even long after they had a DH2 captured intact.
She was most certainly a deterant to the Fokker E1
And most importantly, she was superceded by the FE2b, so she didn`t have to soldier on too long whilst obsolete (unlike the BE series)
I'm just curious why the Gunbus would have the wide side slips of the P deck. Wouldn't the G deck be more appropriate?
Hey Jon,
I thought that with the DH2 , Bristol Scout and FE8 (provisionally) already being on the G,
All of which outperformed the ol`Gunbus,
It maybe better to stick to the P, perhaps omit the wide side slips and one full speed straight in play testing ?
A custom deck would be better for this fabled gun carrier !
ATB
Batesyboy
The difference between a P deck and a G deck is that the side slips are not in the G deck.
The Eindekkers speed was only 130kph so the very slow decks P E G R are the ones to use for these slower aircraft. Until WOW bring out a slower deck.
The DH2 has a WOW damage of 13 and this aircraft came out later than the Vickers FB5 so I would go 11 damage.
Climb rate At 16mins to 1500m is worse than a Eindekker (14mins to 2000m) It's on a par with a fully loaded bomber so a climb rate of 8 is not out of the question.
Ceiling At 9000ft needs to an 8.
My call
G B 11 C/R 8 Ceiling 8
Linz
Last edited by Linz; 06-21-2011 at 23:56.
G or P won't make too much difference, especially since there is a tentative thought to ditch the second side slip entirely.
I have to say that I did think that the 13 damage rating was a bit high. It is a 2-seater, though, and they tend to have a higher DR. But... it is a VERY early bird, so a lower rating would probably be appropriate.
I'd be interested to see everyone else's thoughts on Linz's proposed stats.
I'm with Linz on all his thinking, except for the Deck. Just because I have about six spare P decks and am probably about to get two more as the only way to get the deck I need for another rebuild. I would rather ,therefore, remove the sideslips.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
On the deck, how about something a little more radical and try one of the bomber decks? There are no sideslips, but at those low speeds, the sideslip could just be emulated through alternating L/R turns. The potential candidates would be XD and XC (for really slow w/ tight turns).
Sorry Rob but a G deck is a P deck without sideslips.
Problem with bomber decks is that the straights are too short. You would have to increase the size of the bases to compensate.
Linz
So I could use a P deck and just take the side slips out then? Would everybody be O.K. with that? Just trying to save money.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
No problem to me all the other moves are the same.
I checked out the decks and within the 4 speed bands the differences relate to Immelmanns, sideslips, and 90degree turns with the exception of the L deck for the DVII.
Knowing these make it quite a lot easier to select the best deck. It breaks down to speed, two seater or not, engine, then maneuverability. The first gives speed band, second gives Immelmann, third gives 90degree turns, fourth sideslips.
Linz
The XD deck is used with the "small" bombers which share the same card length as the fighters. It has a straight maneuver length of 29mm compared to 35 mm for the very slowest fighter decks. Seems in line with the speed folk are stating stating for the Gunbus. It probably doesn't turn tightly enough though. The XC without adjustment is only 18mm which does seem to slow, but it's got a good tight turning radius. Just throwing it out there.
EDIT: After looking at some aircraft speeds versus the official deck speed breakdowns, it seems the XC deck could reasonably be used for the Gunbus, as that deck (unmodified for large bomber card length) would represent approximately the 101-120 khp speed band. The XD would represent the 121-140 rang band.
Last edited by Harrier; 06-23-2011 at 12:24. Reason: just adding a little extra info
Curses! You mean that I have to get FotG to fly a Gunbus?!
Seems like a reasonable choice, though I suspect that quite a few people (myself included) will not have the needed deck.
Good point Jon
While I have the FotG I would not like to have to lay out the dish to buy it just so I could get a set of maneuver cards.
I think stick to the fighter cards that are easily accessible to everyone.
Linz
I have the FoTG, Lindsay, but do not intend to mix cards from that set with my smaller 2 seaters even if the gunbus is a trundle toy. I was thinking of making its middle move a stall.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Only problem I can see with that is as a stall has a diamond therefore you can't play a climb.
The difference of 20kph between aircraft would have very little in the middle of a dogfight.
Linz
I was just going to treat the stall as a short straight.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Ok fellas,
What i`ll do over the week end is...
I`ll draw up a custom set and make them a free download on here...
based on the P/G set, but perhaps a tad slower.
I already have done a set for the sopwith pup, as i didn`t have an `I` set.
They seem to work ok
catch y`all soon
It might be more valuable to the community to stat planes as accurately as possible and offer compromises for those who don't have every product available.
Yes. I think we should recommend that FotG deck as that is the most accurate for the speed, but offer alternates (like a custom download or G/P with some modifications). Deck availability should not be the driving factor.
The only problem I have with making our own maneuver decks is acceptance of those WOW players that are not on this forum.
Perhaps loath as I am to say it maybe using the bomber cards is the better idea. Maybe if they where uploaded to the site those who don't have the FotG could then download them and make their own. Until WOW produce them in a expansion pack.
Linz
I guess you can choose what ever you wish,
I`d rather have the option of `flying` an FB5 with what i`ve got or can make myself, rather than being coralled
into buying a set solely for this purpose.
I think i`ll do some play testing with my cards as shown...the P B 13 at least gets one of my favourites into the game...
P as it`s more manoverable than the G
B for the Lewis
13 as it`s a big plane, with lots of `uncritical`area, in other words, area that bullets can pass through without effect
Maybe when Nexus get their bombers released, i will get a set of bomber cards at that time.
Looking forward to the `early bird` releases to match my Gunbus against...
Cheers
Batesyboy
Lee I have no real problem with the P deck. I do think for the early age of this machine I feel 13 is to high for damage count compared to Eindekkers 11 Neuport 10. While the aircraft is larger than these two it's construction is more fragile.
As such I think 10 or at a push 11 is a fair damage count.
Linz
Linz,
The reasons for the higher damage resistance rating, (apart from size, as with most bombers and two seaters)
Is the fact that there has to be some incentive to fly the FB5 over say the BE2 or Morane.
With the Morane, you`d get killed either taking off or landing, Deflector plates made the airscrew inefficient...i could go on...
With the BE, you just couldn`t escape,
However, for the short period that the Gunbus was in front line service, The best available pilots flew the gunbus.
And as the Axis pilots kept clear, this allowed pilots/crews time to mature.
And she was retired to second line duties pretty quickly.
10 is too low for both the Gunbus and the Nieuport, I think that the assumed fragility of the Nieuport is miles out.
Given similar pilot ability, the Eindecker was totally outclassed by the Ni 11.
I don`t think that the DH2, or the Bristol scout, would be too much stronger than the FB5
Given all these maybe `intangibles` I`ll reluctantly go for 11 damage for the gunbus...lol
The main thing is getting the `Gunby` in to the game.
I`ll post some cards with 11 damage as soon as i get five minutes to make amendments
ATB
Batesyboy
Last edited by batesyboy; 06-26-2011 at 02:11. Reason: repeated paragraph
I`ve also been messing about with a custom VVS (Very, Very Slow) deck.
Be interesting to compare the two.
Attachment 15535Attachment 15534Attachment 15533
By the looks of things I`m going to have to use 3 A4 size sheets to get the whole thing to print out hence the `filling out` of the third sheet with a couple of early B.E.2 cards.
Last edited by Rabbit 3; 06-26-2011 at 05:01.
Cracking job Robert !
I don`t suppose that the BE (very early maybe a or b ) versions was very far removed in speed from the
Gunbus, but the Gunbus was much more manouvreable.
Your excellent set of cards will be most valuable as i`m in the process of putting a set of aircraft together
based on the `Wings`BBC tv series from the seventies. (there`s a couple of clips on you tube)
This and the gunbus will all tie in nicely for the imminent nexus early birds range
Ok, I`ve just posted the VVS deck to the Game Aids section so they are now in the moderation queue.
I suspect that for the `Gunbus` we actually need a couple of additional tighter turn cards as well.
I remember watching `Wings` on TV back in the late `70`s?
Very good series as I remember and I think I`ve seen it for sale recently on DVD from Amazon or someplace.
Last edited by Rabbit 3; 07-01-2011 at 12:11.
Robert,
I had a week off work recently and bought the whole series on dvd
It is in the most part brilliant, but gets a bit `soapy` in the second series.
Ok,
I`ll give the Gunbus a go with `Rabbit`s` cards,
failing that. I`ll go with the P deck....now the updated cards !
Have a look at the comments here Robert, if you are interested in "Wings".
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ngs+bbc+series
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
ONE GREAT THREAD GUYS
Have we reached an agreement?
At P B 11 Ceiling 8 c/r 8
if so can we have this posted to the master list?
Linz
I'm happy with that, but would like to hear from a few more members such as Dom, Gunners etc. just to make it a proper concensus.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Robert,
I love that VVS deck. What all planes do you envision using this one for? I imagine it would work for the Be2c as well as the a and b versions?
Perhaps sadly, I look forward to flying a few Be2cs against some Alb DIIIs flown by my daughter. I'll get chewed up, but no better way to appreciate the sacrifice those boys in April 1917 made.
Doug
Doug
Doug,
I`m not sure that the mechanics of wow will truely show how tottally outclassed the BE`s were,
I know what lets make a fighter derivative and call it a BE12 !
I`ll add an `aye` to the P B 11 for the good ol Gunbus
I like the VVS deck. I'll list that as an alternate to the P/G.
Have we decided which slips would be available? Not the wide slip of the P, I would think. G would be better. (Kyte; it would be easy enough to fake a G deck with a modified P.) And are we allowing the Immelmann?
I`ll keep the sideslips in my deck, as the Fb5 was a manouverable if slow plane,
however the immelmann will have to go or the gunner will too !
When I first started playing around with the idea I actually had the B.E.2c specifically in mind.
At the moment though I`m thinking of adding a few additional steep sideslips and tighter turns which can be added to the deck to customise it for different planes.
I won`t do an Immelmann for it though, after all nobody knew how to until Max worked it out!
Last edited by Rabbit 3; 06-30-2011 at 13:46.
Re Immelmann while nobody knew how to do it till Max wouldn't pilots with older planes have given it a go once they knew how to do it?
I say leave the Immelmann in but state only to be used after June 1915 or when ever Max did the first one. (for tournaments, campaigns)
Linz
HMMM... wonder if anybody ever tried it in a B.E.2 and what the result was?
Ok, I`ll put an Immelmann card in to the optional extra card list for anyone that wants to use it.
It`ll help fill up the No 3 sheet if nothing else.
Pretty freaky thought doing an Immelmann in any of these string bags.
Linz
Excellent discussion. While I like the idea of choosing a respective existing deck for some of these unofficial planes, I also like the idea of each plane being slightly different with the use of the custom decks.
Thank you Jon, it would be nice to see both options on your master list - looking back through some of these discussions for some of this info could be frustrating. I can see it now, "didn't one of the posts talk about a custom deck??? Where did that go???"
I've been reading Peter Hart's "Somme Success" lately, back when the Be2c was still not entirely a death sentence...but I think by the end of the book the writing will definitely be on the wall. I know some of these unmaneuverable beasts are not fun from a player's perspective, but I'm more interested in getting a "close to historical" result than I am in winning. You'd think more people would want to play a game with this mentality. I'm going to have to go my local library (no LGS) and set up a game and see what interest I can drum up.
Doug
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