Incendiary ammunition
According to the rules, a plane can be equipped with incendiary ammunition which can be deadly for baloons and planes. But were there any cons for using such ammunition or only pros? If such ammo was so deadly, why not equip all the crates with such ammo and quickly shot down in flames every enemy kite and baloon?
Well, for one: Incendiaries are a bit oversubscribed in _WoW_; it takes a lot of shots to start a fire.Originally Posted by Nightbomber
For another: WW1 was the last war where the various nations subscribed to notions of "honor" -- and incinerating a foe was "not done" (balloon observers had parachutes; pilots generally didn't).
Also: Incendiaries were noticeably more expensive (tho' I forget how much so) than basic ammo; so it was reserved for targets where it would do the most damage -- usually something filled with hydrogen.
Based on my research there were very few pilots who DIDN'T use incendiary by mid-1918. By then, all thoughts of chivalry and honour had gone down in flames. Pilots loaded some combination of armour piercing, tracer, incendiary, and explosive ammo. (Again, very few used 'normal' ball ammunition.) The AP/Incendiary mix was especially good for penetrating the fuel tank and then igniting the stream of fuel soaking into the doped linen.
The disadvantage was that it made your ammunition storage bin highly flammable.
["Early aircraft armament : the aeroplane and the gun up to 1918" - Woodman, H. (Harry) ]
Remember that "incindiary" rounds of the great war, were what we would call tracer. Limited range, and using phosphorus (left a trail of blue smoke, referred to as smoke tracer). So if a round broke open rattling around the ammo storage... difficult to put out phosphorus.
Try and remember there are significant differences between world war one and two in aircraft, maneuvers, and technology; what they describe in one war is totally different 20 years later.
Even in 1918, tracers were becoming a very necessary item on aircraft, as it was very difficult to see just where you're shots were going. By WWII, every aircraft machine gun and cannon would have tracers every third or fifth round, regardless of the type of ammo used.
I may be wrong about the availability of incendiary; I don't have the book in front of me and I'm going by memory. I am reasonably confident though. The reference in wikipedia about the RFC not using it against other aircraft IS lacking a citation, so that may be early-war or simply incorrect.
Early in WW1 there was a "convention" to not use Incendary Rounds against Personel only Balloons but as stated before Conventions tended to ignored by 1918 what with Mustard & Chlorene Gas etc.
There was actually and international "law" prohibiting things like incendiary rounds in the early parts of the war. By mid war many pilots were still "honorable" enough to not want to use it... by late war it was all business.
And by some accounts they were not that effective against balloons anyway.
Here is an extract from "Fighting the Flying Circus" by Eddie Rickenbacker:
"Later on I was to discover that flaming bullets very frequently puncture observation balloons without producing the expected blaze. The very rapidity of their flight leaves no time for the ignition of the gas. Often in the early dawn the accumulated dews and moisture in the air serve so to dampen the balloon's envelope that hundreds of incendiary bullets penetrate the envelope without doing more damage than can be repaired with a few strips of adhesive plaster."
Hence the experimentation with things like rockets and flare guns
Thanks for your competent comments, chaps.
Dear Bill, this is a very useful extract of Rickenbacker's memiores, thanks for sharing it.
Andrzej.
"Buckingham bullets" use is a delicate subject.
In Norman Franks "Dog-Fight Aerial Tactics..." there are some pages dedicated to this kind of ammunition only permitted by international law to be used only during attacks on balloons.
But in the heat of the moment.... some pilots use them. Everyone knows that Ball was a pilot having a great respect for foes but he was know to have fired rockets and Buckingham bullets at enemy aircrafts in 1916.
Or some pilots thought to use them to avenge a chap... as William MacLanachan wrote in Fighter Pilot. Mannock stopped him to do it.
A pilot found by the emeny with this kind of ammunition took a great risk.
Franks wrote: "At on stage, a card signed by the General Officer Commanding in the field had to be pinned to the instrument panel of aircraft assigned to attack balloons, in case the pilot were brought down and captured and his aircraft found to carry Buckingham rounds".
Attilio
That's right!
I`d be in favour of a ban on `Buckingham` bullets in the game too...
In a book I was reading many pilots put incendiary rounds in one machinegun and regular shot in the other. A house rule could be that a pilot using incendiary rounds that has an A-deck goes to a B-deck. And the pilot only uses the incendiary rounds on balloons.
Tom
I agree, in fact I suggested this as consideration regarding the Colonels new ace skill of Black Swan in his post of the same name!
Great minds think alike.
Tom
We have used it against baloons , but not at all against planes.
Was watching a youtube video about that show on the history channel.. can't remember the name of the show though.. its about aircraft.. that British show that is real good.. any whoo.. lol.. late war there was a SPAD XIII pilot that went after 8 or so D VIIs and was using incendiaries... and flamed 2 of them before he bugged out.. as the odds dropped he saw that they could more easily get a bead on him so he skedaddled.. lol.. but they never mentioned that the ammo was questionable in ethics..
Yes I saw that as well. This happened at the end of the war and it was a battle of attrition. Downing as many planes as one could to end the war. Here is the video;
Tom
Hard to argue with that! LOLGreat minds think alike.
Tom
Thanks for posting the HC video, I saw it to when it came out but could not remember the name of the episode.
Reading Pluviano-Guwerrini "Francesco Baracca Una vita al volo" I found a passage of a letter wrote in May, 1917 where our ace told of a shooting down with incendiary bullets. And it wasn't the only episode.
Trying to understand why an often quoted "international law" seemed frequently ignored (and we found citation from aces well-know for their chivalrous behaviour and humanenes), I found an interesting post (http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ot...iary-ammo.html).
Rammjager summarized some passages of German lawyer Eberhard Spetzler book „Luftkrieg und Menschlichkeit“:
"...
The „Declaration of St. Petersburg” – on 29 November / 11 December 1868 (!) - banned the use of bullets with a weight under 400 g if they were filled with explosive or burning or flammable content. Spetzler calls this the first positive-legal ban of a weapon after the prohibition of the Armbrust in 1139. The declaration was valid for all states who did sign it – and Germany, Great Britain, France and many others did so.
There were two problems with the whole ban:
1- A so-called “Allbeteiligungsklausel” (All involvement clause?) – can not translate this term but it seems to mean the whole ban is only active for all if every country is sticking to this rule.
2- Already in WWI were arguments if this rule is also to apply in the new air war!
Since 1916 the air powers (Spetzler: at first the Entente - then both sides) did use these bullets despite all concerns at the start of the war. One reason was the need for this kind of bullets to fight successfully balloons, airships and aircraft.
At the war´s end the general recognitions had mad its way that targets in aircombat as well as the conditions of shooting in 3D-space would demand special bullets which would not fit to the declaration of St. Petersburg
..."
War feeds on itself (Tito Livio)
Attilio
Thanks Attilio, that helps to flesh out the reasons for attitudes to incendiary ammo. As an aside, I noted that in some of the scenarios in Burning Drachens the Central Powers are armed with Rockets. Does anyone know if this is correct, or did they only use incendiary rounds as I was led to believe?
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
All the history books I read told that the rockets was used only by Allied. I don't remember at the moment in WWI Balloon Busters scenarios where the Central Powers are armed with Rockets. I'll check it this evening
Attilio
Speaking about Germans and rockets, I had some info from forumites at www.theaerodrome.com.
Dan San Abbott wrote: "In 1916, the Fliegertruppe set up a Halb.D.I with strut mounted rockets. I don't know if they were tried, most likely. I don't know what the results of their test were. It looked like the prototype D.100."
Gregvan wrote: "The Germans recorded a few experiments with their own brand of rockets fired from Halberstadt D-types or Albatros D.III's, but they never adopted them in any appreciable numbers... One of the experimenters was Rudolf Nebel in Jasta 5; he later became a famous rocket scientist in the '30's."
Gregvan again with a couple of examples: "There were just a few German experiments with rockets, to my knowledge. Rudolf Nebel of Jasta 5 -this is based entirely on his own account- mounted two stovepipes under each wing of his Halberstadt D-type and installed four signal rockets and attached ignition wires connected to a firing button. He did not intend them for use against balloons, but aircraft. He claimed to have frightened one "English" pilot into surrender and to have shot the propeller off another British aircraft. He later affixed his new invention to the wings of an Albatros D.III, but the wings caught fire from the fiery exhaust of the rockets; Nebel was lucky to extinguish the flames in the slipstream, and no further experiments were made. All this is NOT (curiously) corroborated by Nebel's own logbook entries, which survive.
In Oct 1916, a "rocket squad" equipped with a Halberstadt D.II armed with 4 stick-stabilized rockets mounted on the outer wing struts left Berlin for trials against balloons (the Germans had captured at least one example of the LePrieur system, and this was no doubt the inspiration).Two weeks later the "Raketentrupp" was back in Berlin, the try-outs a failure. All of this info comes from Peter Grosz' wonderful "Halberstadt Fighters" book from Albatros."
Not so much, but enough to allow a scenario in my opinion. After all we included captured and low-production planes to make the game more variated...
Some Italian aces were said to take away tracing bullets from their ammunition belts to avoid their enemy to burn, for humanitarian reasons. Hence the "Chivalrous aptitude" unofficial ace skill at www.wingsofwar.it. And the cover of Watch your back! where you can see condensate and tracing bullets from the UFAG machinegun, but only condensate and not tracing bullets from Scaroni's Hanriot.
Thanks for the justification Andrea. I was sure that if it occured in your game there was a good reason for it. That's good enough for me. Now all I need is a Halberstadt armed with rockets.
The scenario to which I reffered Attilio is " A lonely Sentinel" P 41 of Burning Drachens. Last paragraph. "German player attacks with an Albatros, with rockets.
So you don't need to go to the trouble of looking it up.
Thanks chaps.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Opsss! After my recent bithday I'm really aged (or it's still the angover!) :eek2:
I opened this thread in July 2010:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...Prieur-rockets
I had some references to German airplane with rockets Aris (Akosion) posted two photos of Halberstadt D-type aircrafts with rockets.
I completely forgot them.
Sorry chaps!
Attilio
Thanks everybody. I'll answer the other thread too...
Does anyone know when the first use of Incendiary ammunition was used on Balloons or the Zeppelins?
Cheers,
Michael
I think you will find what you need here Michael.
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...endiary-Rounds
Rob.
There's another issue.
Spandau and Vickers guns fire from a closed bolt, so a round is always "up the spout" in a very hot chamber.
A cook-off of propellant can be nasty - it's not synchronised - but a cook-off of an incendiary or explosive bullet can wreck the gun.
It was normal for RFC and RNAS aircraft with 1 vickers and 1 lewis to only have "funny" ammo in the lewis. Other nations used an 11mm vickers which didn't have this problem. They fired a larger but slower bullet, and didn't cook-off.
A very interesting bit of info Zoe.
In light of which, we have yet another good reason to resort to using two B firing guns rather than A when flying with an overwing Lewis on SE5s and the like.
Rob.
Yes Rob I have always thought we should adopt that for the SE's & any Nieuports with Vickers & Lewis guns.
This also comes into effect when such Aircraft have a gun jam. You have the choice of firing a B damage gun or waiting to clear the jam & return to firing 2 x B guns.
Great suggestions Rob and Barry - thanks. I think we are going to allow these house rules for the appropriate craft.
Michael
Don't forget that there were incidents of ammunition cooking off in the stowage bins in the Fokker D. VII due to overheating. I believe incendiary and tracer ammunition was pulled for a short while (sorry can't remember dates) until the cause was determined. Additional holes were cut in the engine covers, and planes even flew without engine covers to facilitate cooling.
Right on Baz.
This also comes into effect when such Aircraft have a gun jam. You have the choice of firing a B damage gun or waiting to clear the jam & return to firing 2 x B guns.
That is exactly what I was angling at.
Rob.
Fritz Pütter (25 victories) after nearly a month in a military hospital, he died from severe burns received when his Fokker's incendiary ammunition ignited on 16 July 1918.
Friedrich "Fritz" Friedrichs (20 victories) was one of the German balloon-busters. By the start of 1918, Friedrichs was flying single seat aircraft with Jasta 10. More than half of his confirmed victories were against enemy balloons. On the day he died, his Fokker D.VII (309/18) burst into flames when the incendiary bullets he used for attacking balloons exploded. As he baled out of the burning Fokker, his parachute caught and tore on the tailplane. Friedrichs fell to his death, never knowing he'd won the Blue Max.
Last edited by john snelling; 07-08-2013 at 11:03.
Perhaps Incendiary bullets need a counter-balance for the extra danger they carry vs. the extra damages they cause.
Perhaps... If a jam occurs on a machine shooting bullets then draw 1 B damage card. If a special symbol then it starts on fire?
Michael
Tracer bullets have different ballistic qualities than ball ammunition; if your tracers are hitting, then the other four are not.
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