Split-S

[The Blue Baron]

Simple question: is the split-s a legal maneuver when you play without altitude? As I understand the rules it is not. Right?

[Oberst Hajj]

There actually is no Split S maneuver in WWI... with or with out altitude rules.

[The Blue Baron]

Of course there is a split-s maneuver. In this version of the rules (Rules) you find it on page 12.

[Oberst Hajj]

I can't get that link to open

[The Blue Baron]

In this version it is on page 14.

[Oberst Hajj]

I’m pretty sure it is linking to the Miniatures Rules that only came in the Deluxe set or via download. That set of rules does have a split-s listed, as you stated. It is only a maneuver when altitude rules are in effect, since it is not a rule listed out side of these special altitude rules.

[Oberst Hajj]

Humm, I really don't recall seeing the Split S in my printed copy of BD. I'll have to double check that. However, I still read it as an altitude rule only.

[The Blue Baron]

It's in the burning drachens rules, too.
But I would agree, I read it as an altitude only rule, too. But the question is: why shouldn't you be allowed to fly a Split-S when you play without altitude rules? (OK, if you performe a Split-S you loose height but if you perform an Immelman turn you gain height. Therefore it makes no difference...)

[Poliorketes]

We never use the Split S without altitude.

[Oberst Hajj]

It's in the burning drachens rules, too.
But I would agree, I read it as an altitude only rule, too. But the question is: why shouldn't you be allowed to fly a Split-S when you play without altitude rules? (OK, if you performe a Split-S you loose height but if you perform an Immelman turn you gain height. Therefore it makes no difference...)

Well, the actual Immelman maneuver during WWI really was not a height gaining move like it was in WWII and is today. I think the game "acknowledges" this by allowing it in the non-altitude rules and "enhances" it in the altitude rules.

[Gravitypool]

In fact, the immelman as the rules play it is a jet age maneuver. The original didn't even change directions at all.

The classic immelman turn consisted in, after a dive attack from 6' position, climb to reduce speed (and not overfly enemy) , 360º roll in the middle of the climb keeping the target in view, and then dive again for the target, still at 6'.

Repeat until the target is dead or realizes he's being owned.

[Pooh]

There's really no reason to have the split-S without altitude as it would do the same thing as the immelman. (turn around quickly).

Pooh

[The Blue Baron]

There's really no reason to have the split-S without altitude as it would do the same thing as the immelman. (turn around quickly).

Well, it would allow to turn around even faster...

But thanks for all the historical explanations!

[Carlos Lopes]

Hello,

In Immelmann turns I have always use the card to fly exactly in the reverse direction, but seeing the manoeuvres of the fighters, can I assume the possibility of giving the option of flying in any direction?

By the way, can I use in the split-s the same possibility?

Thanks

[Gravitypool]

I don't think so. The maneuvers physics itself limits the aircraft to 180º turn, maybe with a +/- 10º variation, but not much.

The other thing is the mandatory straight after the immelman, which shouldn't be so restrictive. In fact the ace skills allow experimented pilots to immelman without the ending straight.

[Greywolf]

So what cards do you use to do S-split maneuver?

Cheers
GW

don't worry found the answer I was looking for:

[The Blue Baron]

Split-S
The Split-S is a downward Immelmann turn. Use the standard Immelmann
card. When it is planned, it must have a stall before and a straight after
(you can tell that it is a Split-S instead of an Immelmann because the
player put a stall before it instead of a straight). When it is executed, the
plane loses also a climb counter. If it has none, it loses 1 altitude level and
it takes as many climb counters as the climb rate of the plane minus one.
Example
An Albatros D.Va (climb rate of 3) is at level 3 of altitude and has no
climb counters. It plans a right sideslip, a stall, and an Immelmann/
Split-S. When in the third phase the airplane executes the Split-S, it
goes immediately to level 2 and it takes 2 (3-1) climb counters. A
Sopwith Camel would take a single climb counter (2-1) instead.
If a plane at 0 altitude looses its last climb marker because of a Split-S, it
crashes to the ground and it is eliminated.
The Split-S cannot be executed in the same turn as a Dive.

...

[Greywolf]

I found that after i posted the reply lol.

Will have to give it a go.

Cheers
GW

[Jasta2]

Gravity.....you are actually describing the Horizontal Vrille and not the WWI Immelman. The Immelman maneuver of WWI was, in fact, a reversal maneuver consisting of a steep climb, and just before stall speed rudder kicking the nose around so it pointed downwards and then diving to pick up airspeed and pulling out in the opposite direction. It could be initiated from a dive or from level flight if airspeed was sufficient. It was also referred to by the French as the Renversement and more approximates today's Hammer head aerobatic maneuver. It had the disadvantage of making the aircraft an easy target as it hung near stall speed while the nose came around (which should be penalized in WoW) which was why the maneuver fell out of favor towards the end of the war.

The Immelman in WoW is a Half Loop and not a WWI Immelman. Here is a diagram from Eddie Rickenbackers 1919 book titled Fighting the Flying Circus which shows the different WWI maneuvers. The Renversement is the Immelman of that time.

[Max Headroom]

I generally play with altitude but still use the 'split-s' without altitude in both theatres of war...
Blue Baron's right in that you can do a somewhat 'shorter' 180. turn...
It's often very handy especially if there's a dirty great balloon in your way!

[Flying Officer Kyte]

There is a nice example of an Immelmann drawn by Flight Lt. E.l. Ford at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/image:WW1Immelmann.jpg. It also shows the positions for the rudder bar and control rod during the manoeuvre.
Bohdi, the other manoeuvre on your post look great, but how the hell do we translate them onto cards. I do use altitude, so am up for any manoeuvre that gives me the drop, literally, on my opponent.
Thanks for the posting, I will add it to my folder of examples.
Rob.

[Von Deekin]

In my homerules I use a 'Dive' followed by an 'Immelman', followed by a 'Straight'. Been using this with my optional altitude rules & it works well.

[Willi Von Klugermann]

so to get this straight

WWI Immelmann = Reversenment = wingover

downward Immelmann = split S

upward Immelmann = half loop

[Oberst Hajj]

Yep, you've got it Chris.

[Willi Von Klugermann]

Yep, you've got it Chris.

Thanks Keith

[AlgyLacey]

In my homerules I use a 'Dive' followed by an 'Immelman', followed by a 'Straight'. Been using this with my optional altitude rules & it works well.

I like this - i think the rule requiring a straight-immelmann-straight for the (half loop with a roll off the top) should allow a dive to count as a straight for either.

Linking with the LOOP thread too I dont see why the straight (dive)- immelmann-imelmann-straight isn't an option.

In the aces rules theres an ability meaning the pilot doesn't have to pull the second straight but is there anyone who doesn't take bullet checker as teir first Ace skill?

[David Kuijt]

but is there anyone who doesn't take bullet checker as teir first Ace skill?

Almost nobody takes bullet checker in my group. Good Shot, Daredevil Pilot, Acrobatic Pilot, Tough -- lots of other things, but not bullet checker. Two-seaters are the only ones who take bullet checker with any frequency until they already have several Ace skills.

[Oberst Hajj]

Almost nobody takes bullet checker in my group. Good Shot, Daredevil Pilot, Acrobatic Pilot, Tough -- lots of other things, but not bullet checker. Two-seaters are the only ones who take bullet checker with any frequency until they already have several Ace skills.

Same with my group... but some do take bullet checker from time to time.

[krolik]

Our group uses a random draw method for Ace abilities.

[Craftorian]

Almost nobody takes bullet checker in my group. Good Shot, Daredevil Pilot, Acrobatic Pilot, Tough -- lots of other things, but not bullet checker. Two-seaters are the only ones who take bullet checker with any frequency until they already have several Ace skills.

I am new to the game and this forum; please, what is an "Ace Skill"?

[Oberst Hajj]

Ace Skills were some special rules put out by Andrea (game's designer) on the Nexus site to add a bit more flavor to the game. We have several threads here that list quite a few of them. You can also find a full list in my Knights of the Air campaign rules in the Files section.