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Thread: Shotdown? What's Next?

  1. #1

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    Default Shotdown? What's Next?

    I am sure it has been posted but I cannot find anything; does anyone have stats on what happened when a plane was shotdown (i.e. % of pilots killed or captured)? Historically that is.
    Last edited by wygz; 03-26-2011 at 12:56.

  2. #2

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    I'd like to know this stuff as well.

  3. #3

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    G'day Chaps!
    I cant give you any actual percentages but many Allied & German Pilots did suvive being shot down & were taken Prisioner.
    If you read any of the Osprey Aces series or the Elite Squadrons ones there are many references to Pilots becoming Prisoners of War.
    I do think that the majority of casuralties that ended in the death of the Pilots were those caused by the Plane "breaking up", going down in Flames or the Pilot being shot in a vital spot (head, heart etc).

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    Yeah, I was hoping for percentage, maybe throw in some historical percentile dice for survival and maybe escape after being shot down. I figure it would be pretty fun for campaigns or wanting to keep a pilot.

  5. #5

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    I'd say it largely depended on where you came down relative to the lines.

    Behind friendly lines, you're gonna be either dead, injured and hospitalized, or okay and headed for another plane (maybe after a little R&R to calm your nerves). Due to prevailing winds and tactical situation ("holding territory" on the defensive against Entente retake), easier for German pilots--it was a freak reverse wind that helped push MvR westward to his doom.

    Behind enemy lines, your odds of escape are slim, you'll probably be dead or captured. No stats, but I'd say a 1-in-6 chance of successful escape unless we're talking about someone who was a master of fieldcraft (say, a hunter who'd stay out for days at a time and has the fortune to come down in woods) in civilian life, and then there's the matter of crossing the trenches into No Man's Land.

    In Mo Man's Land, unless you can get away from your plane fast you will die because artillery saw downed planes as "priority targets" much like snipers. If you're injured, you'll probably be a capture or kill, unless you can manage to get away from the incoming barrage and "play dead" until nightfall.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  6. #6

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    I'd say it largely depended on where you came down relative to the lines.

    Behind friendly lines, you're gonna be either dead, injured and hospitalized, or okay and headed for another plane (maybe after a little R&R to calm your nerves). Due to prevailing winds and tactical situation ("holding territory" on the defensive against Entente retake), easier for German pilots--it was a freak reverse wind that helped push MvR westward to his doom.

    Behind enemy lines, your odds of escape are slim, you'll probably be dead or captured. No stats, but I'd say a 1-in-6 chance of successful escape unless we're talking about someone who was a master of fieldcraft (say, a hunter who'd stay out for days at a time and has the fortune to come down in woods) in civilian life, and then there's the matter of crossing the trenches into No Man's Land.

    In Mo Man's Land, unless you can get away from your plane fast you will die because artillery saw downed planes as "priority targets" much like snipers. If you're injured, you'll probably be a capture or kill, unless you can manage to get away from the incoming barrage and "play dead" until nightfall.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  7. #7

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    Well, we have some great ideas...but I'd like to see some stats??

  8. #8

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    There doesn't seem to be much information on the web about this subject. Though the deaths of pilots are recorded, the crashes that were not fatal aren't necessarily available, and even separating the combat deaths from the accidents isn't always possible.

    There are the three "Under the Guns" books by Norman Franks, Hal Giblin and Nigel McCrery (McCrery on Red Baron only) that provide details of the victims of nine German aces. From the first, Under the Guns of the Red Baron, you can get stats on MvR's victories:

    Of the 80 planes shot down, 35 were single-seaters and 45 were two seaters.

    Of the 35 single-seaters, 23 (66%) pilots died, 12 (34%) lived.

    Of the 45 two-seaters, in 11 (24%) both pilot and observer survived, in 27 (60%) both died, in in 7 (16%) one lived an one died.

    Overall, the odds are pretty close to a 1/3 chance of surviving being shot down by le Petit Rouge.

    I will work on collating the results from the other two books, and post them here soon.
    Last edited by tuladin; 03-28-2011 at 20:28.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuladin View Post
    There doesn't seem to be much information on the web about this subject. Though the deaths of pilots are recorded, the crashes that were not fatal aren't necessarily available, and even separating the combat deaths from the accidents isn't always possible.

    There are the three "Under the Guns" books by Norman Franks, Hal Giblin and Nigel McCrery (McCrery on Red Baron only) that provide details of the victims of nine German aces. From the first, Under the Guns of the Red Baron, you can get stats on MvR's victories:

    Of the 80 planes shot down, 35 were single-seaters and 45 were two seaters.

    Of the 35 single-seaters, 23 (66%) pilots died, 12 (34%) lived.

    Of the 45 two-seaters, in 11 (24%) both pilot and observer survived, in 27 (60%) both died, in in 7 (16%) one lived an one died.

    Overall, this odds are pretty close to a 1/3 chance of surviving being shot down by le Petit Rouge.

    I will work on collating the results from the other two books, and post them here soon.
    This is cool! As we have no aces yet in our tiny group we do the best we can to protect them when we have them, or those that are close. We have been playing with a 1/4 chance of survival (random guess)! We use 2 6sided die and a roll of 4,5, or 11 means you live. Then we roll for wound severity. The same numbers mean you have a permanent wound that prevents you flying again. A roll of 2 or 12 means you walked away without a scratch! Any other roll means you roll again for the number of days you're out recuperating in hospital. If shot down behind enemy lines we guessed you have 5/6 chance of being captured, so a die role of 6 or 7 means you evade capture. If captured, you can roll once a week to see if you escape. A roll of 11 means you got away and returned to your side of the lines. This has not been a factor as everyone shot down has died but for one who survived crashing behind his own lines and is currently 'in hospital'.

    I started with a core group of fantasy RPG gamers where everything is determined by a roll, they just were uncomfortable without using dice for something! I think it's a good idea as it gives you pause about your comfort level and daring-do. Just something we've added to the game...and it works!

  10. #10

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    We use the critical hit deck from the files section to determine the status of fallen pilots. It will be good to have some stats to validate the percentage of deaths, so that the cards can reflect that.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  11. #11

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    Our league gives pilots/crew that have their plane shot to shreads (damage points reach zero) a 50% (4 or better on a 6 sided die) chance to survive the resulting "crash" keeping in mind that the plane is just not flyable anymore for some reason but controlable enought to attempt a crash landing. In our minds this could mean that the engine has stopped, or the pilot is having trouble with the controls, what ever story you want to tell. If the pilot/crew survive this "emergancy landing" and are behind their own lines they just need to get back to the aerodrome for tea or a beer. If they are in no mans land they must roll again (same chance) to cross into friendly territroy alive. If they are behind enemy lines, then they must roll twice to make it home, once to get into no mans land and once to get out again. We have a surprisingly even mix of success. For our players it is important for these pilots to get home so they can continue their race to ace status. These rules have cut WAY down on the fly till you die mentality in our games so that you can capitalize on our ace skill system in other games.

    If you are lucky enough to draw the Explosion card we draw one of the Critical hit cards created by LGKR as mentioned by Flying Officer Kyte to see what happens to the aircraft and pilot/crew. These simple things really make our games into great war stories for us, which we really do recount! Did I ever tell you about the time...?
    Last edited by Charlie3; 03-29-2011 at 09:06.

  12. #12

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    Totals from the book Under the Guns of the German Aces:

    Max Immelmann had 17 victories - 4 single-seaters and 13 two-seaters. Of the 4 single-seaters, 1 (25%) pilot lived and 3 (75%) died. Of the 13 two-seaters, in 3 (23%) both pilot and observer lived, in 4 (31%) both died, and in 6 (46%) only one survived.

    Of Hermann Göring's 22 claims, the authors could track down the identities of 12 - 8 single and 4 two-seaters. Of the 8 single-seaters, 6 (75%) lived and 3 (25%) died. Of the 4 two seaters, both pilot and observer survived in 3 (75%) cases, the pilot only being killed in the other 1 (25%),

    Werner Voss had 48 victories, 45 that were identified - 20 single-seaters and 25 two-seaters. Of the singles, 10 (50%) lived and 10 (50%) died. Of the 25 twos, in 7 (28%) both lived, in 9 (36%) both died, and in the other 9 (36%) only one survived.

    Lothar von Richthofen had 40 victories, 37 that were identified - 13 single-seaters and 24 two-seaters. Of the singles, 4 (31%) lived and 9 (69%) died. Of the 24 twos, in 10 (42%) both lived, in 12 (50%) both died, and in 2 (8%) only one survived.

    So to combine the results of these four with MvR from the previous post, we have 80 single-seaters with 33 (41%) pilots surviving, and 111 two-seaters with both occupants surviving in 34 - 31% of the time, and one surviving in 25 -22% of the time. Of these 302 men who fell from the skies, 126 (about 42%) lived to tell the tale.

    I still have to do the third book, with 4 more of the Kaiser's aces to consider.
    Last edited by tuladin; 03-28-2011 at 12:06.

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    Good skills there Larry - will definitely be making use of those figures when it comes to campaign gaming....

    Dom

  14. #14

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    This is really useful stuff Larry. Have you got the third book or would you like to have a look at my copy. Strange to say it is the only one of the trio I have so far.
    Rob.
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  15. #15

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    I have a copy. Thanks anyway!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie3 View Post
    Our league gives pilots/crew that have their plane shot to shreads (damage points reach zero) a 50% (4 or better on a 6 sided die) chance to survive the resulting "crash" keeping in mind that the plane is just not flyable anymore for some reason. In our minds this could mean that the engine has stopped, or the pilot is having trouble with the controls, what ever story you want to tell. If the pilot/crew survive this "emergancy landing" and are behind their own lines they just need to get back to the aerodrome for tea or a beer. If they are in no mans land they must roll again (same chance) to cross into friendly territroy alive. If they are behind enemy lines, then they must roll twice to make it home, once to get into no mans land and once to get out again. We have a surprisingly even mix of success. For our players it is important for these pilots to get home so they can continue their race to ace status. These rules have cut WAY down on the fly till you die mentality in our games so that you can capitalize on our ace skill system in other games.

    If you are lucky enough to draw the Explosion card we draw one of the Critical hit cards created by LGKR as mentioned by Flying Officer Kyte to see what happens to the aircraft and pilot/crew. These simple things really make our games into great war stories for us, which we really do recount! Did I ever tell you about the time...?
    Good idea Charlie re: the Explosion card. We've been playing that if you draw it - fini, you're dead, no second chance. I need to check out LGKR's critical hit cards and determine if it would work better than our die rolls.

  17. #17

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    Totals from the book Under the Guns of the Kaiser's Aces:

    Of the 24 identified victims of Erwin Böhme, 15 were single-seaters and 9 were two-seaters. In the single-seaters, 7 (47%) of the pilots lived and 8 (53%) died. In the two-seaters. in 3 (33%) both occupants lived, in 4 (45%) both died. and in 2 (22%) one lived and one died.

    Of the 30 identified victims of Max Müller, 16 were single-seaters and 14 were two-seaters. In the single-seaters, 12 (75%) of the pilots lived and 4 (25%) died. In the two-seaters. in 4 (29%) both occupants lived, in 3 (21%) both died. and in 6 (50%) one lived and one died.

    Of the 21 identified victims of Adolf von Tutschek, 16 were single-seaters and 5 were two-seaters. In the single-seaters, 10 (62.5%) of the pilots lived and 6 (37.5%) died. In the two-seaters. in 3 (60%) both occupants lived, in 1 (20%) both died. and in 1 (20%) one lived and one died.

    Of the 33 identified victims of Kurt Wolff, 14 were single-seaters and 19 were two-seaters. In the single-seaters, 3 (21%) of the pilots lived and 11 (79%) died. In the two-seaters. in 7 (37%) both occupants lived, in 8 (42%) both died. and in 4 (21%) one lived and one died.

    --------------------------------------------==========-----------------------------------------------

    So adding up the fates of the pilots shot down by these nine aces, we find of 141 single-seaters downed 65 (46%) of the pilots lived, 76 (54%) died. Of the 158 two-seaters shot down 51 (32%) had both occupants who lived, 68 (43%) had both who died, and in 39 (25%) one lived and one died.

    Of the 457 men who were defeated by these aces, 206 (a solid 45%) survived the encounter. If you wanted to translate that to a dice roll, the shot-down pilot or observer would survive on a roll of 6, 7 or 8 on 2d6.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
    Good idea Charlie re: the Explosion card. We've been playing that if you draw it - fini, you're dead, no second chance. I need to check out LGKR's critical hit cards and determine if it would work better than our die rolls.
    They are in the Files area of the site. There are red and green skull and crossbones symbols in one corner. The red ones mean the pilot/crew are dead (you still have to read the card to find out what happened) The green ones mean that there is a chance the pilot/crew will survive this catastrophic event. If you get a green card we still use the six sided die and the 4 or better to find out if they live. There is a 25% chance of drawing a green card, and a 50% chance of surviving it.

    Each Critical card has a little story of what happened to the plane on it which makes for some amusing table talk, and just adds to the story of what is going on in the game. We just spread them out and let the luckless player draw the one he/she wants. Beware there is one card that is an actual explosion that causes collateral damage to any planes that happen to be too close! I lost a plane by causing the explosion card to be drawn, the player drew the collateral damage card and my plane had to draw damage. I drew a 5!! down I went.

    They are a fun way to spice things up without changing any rules for the basic game itself. Give them a go I think you will like them.
    Last edited by Charlie3; 03-29-2011 at 09:10.

  19. #19

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    Firstly, thanks to Larry for doing all the hard work. The cards that Charlie mentions are very good fun and I use them myself. From Larry's stats it looks as if the survival rate needs upping a bit.That is easily accomplished by just duplicating a few of the survival cards. On the other hand it gives you a chance to be creative and add a few cards of your own composition.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  20. #20

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    We use the same system as Charlie 3 described, and identically have found that our running-campaign has become much more interesting.
    In addition we become ACEs after just 3 kills and get an EXPERIENCE SKILL after just 3 sorties.
    Also we award a BONUS EXPERIENCE SKILL pt for specific mission successes (not all mission successes, just ones that we think are worthy of a BONUS).
    The objective that we had was to get a diversity of abilities and skills into a players aircrew list as quickly as possible without "seeding/salting" their initial lists.
    It has worked very well.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie3 View Post
    They are in the Files area of the site. There are red and green skull and crossbones symbols in one corner. The red ones mean the pilot/crew are dead (you still have to read the card to find out what happened) The green ones mean that there is a chance the pilot/crew will survive this catastrophic event. If you get a green card we still use the six sided die and the 4 or better to find out if they live. There is a 25% chance of drawing a green card, and a 50% chance of surviving it.

    Each Critical card has a little story of what happened to the plane on it which makes for some amusing table talk, and just adds to the story of what is going on in the game. We just spread them out and let the luckless player draw the one he/she wants. Beware there is one card that is an actual explosion that causes collateral damage to any planes that happen to be too close! I lost a plane by causing the explosion card to be drawn, the player drew the collateral damage card and my plane had to draw damage. I drew a 5!! down I went.

    They are a fun way to spice things up without changing any rules for the basic game itself. Give them a go I think you will like them.
    You're right, it does sound like fun. Thank you Charlie.



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