RATES of FIRE differences and House Rule damage decks

[Bruce]

We are not very happy with using just A and B damage decks to represent the fire of belt-fed and magazine fed MGs, single and twin guns, and double combos (e.g. the SE 5a which used 1 Vickers and 1 Lewis)

Has anybody created additional damage decks to represent the real, greater differentation between the guns and gun combinations? Share please?

[Hunter]

Bruce, good question! Don't hold me to it but I think the Vickers had a higher rate of fire over the drum fed Lewis. We've played around with different variations of the damage decks to compensate but none haven't truly worked. In my opinion, twin Spandaus/twin Vickers are more accurate and deadly than a 1 Vickers & 1 Lewis combo. As far as I know there are no other damage decks, except the one for the Nieuport 16 (which is used for rocket damage) in the Ballon Busters package. Flying Officer Kyte (Rob) in England has good rule suggestions, perhaps he has a thought or two on this. What do you think Flying Officer Kyte?

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Thanks for the vote of confidence chaps, but I am not really worried by this as long as the obvious superiority of the twin gun is manifested. There are so many variables to take into account with air combat that for all my tinkering with the mechanics of the game I am rapidly coming to the conclusion from my reading on the subject that it was the pilot and not the machine or the arms that decided many combats. Add that fickle lady luck into the equation and you have to admit that whatever your name was, if your number was up that was it. I'm all for the pilot being just the actual player behind the joystick as it were. You are as good as you are. If you want to make a gun less effective why not just limit its cone of fire to make it harder to hit with it. Saves a lot of extra work. Just mark the new angle on its base with an O.H.P. pen. Then you can easily rub it off again when you want to.
Rob.

[Linz]

Just been checking out the Rate of fire for Vickers and Lewis Machine Guns
The Vickers 450 - 500 rounds per minute
The Lewis 500 - 600 rounds per minute
on the Se5a the Vickers is fire through the propellor using the Interruptor gear that reduces the rate of fire to about 350 - 400 rounds per minute but the Lewis is wing mounted so can fire at full rate.
So technicially a Se5a's fire power is better than twin vickers.
Linz

[Linz]

Found a interesting site re MGs
Have a look
http://snomhf.exofire.net/OFFaircraft.html
Linz

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Some interesting stats there Linz. with some of the other stuff you have submitted worth a rep point.
Thanks, Rob.

[rockyr]

Before one looks for new rules one need to consider it the current rules model the reality or not. Is rate of fire the only feature of damage? For instance, the Lewis may fire faster than a synchronized Lewis but runs out of ammo a lot faster as well. Factor in reloading and the rate changes quite a bit... Has rate of fire a sure correlation with damage, even with the same calibre? Think of shoulder arms that kick off the target from recoil - they may fire fast but need to be re-aimed every time. What has jam rate to do with the evaluation?

Did WW1 pilots express any differences? Ball was certainly happy with his Lewis, even with all its seeming drawbacks. German pilots loved their twin Spandaus, when they did not jam.

I suspect the pilot was far more important than the gun...

In short, WoW is abstract intentionally, and simple. Will alterations improve the game? Improve the simulation? At what cost?

[MayorJim]

Amen Rocky! ...my thoughts as well. This is a "game" that simulates...not a true simulation. I do admire those who are into the minutiae of the aircraft and weapons, but for me, any "add-ons" just slow down a great fun game...

[Archidamus]

Going with Rob's suggestion about firing arcs, maybe that's the way to go to make two-seaters less effective - give the fixed front guns a narrower cone of fire to represent two seaters being more restricted than the fighters in making those fine aiming adjustments.

[Hunter]

Just been checking out the Rate of fire for Vickers and Lewis Machine Guns
The Vickers 450 - 500 rounds per minute
The Lewis 500 - 600 rounds per minute
on the Se5a the Vickers is fire through the propellor using the Interruptor gear that reduces the rate of fire to about 350 - 400 rounds per minute but the Lewis is wing mounted so can fire at full rate.
So technicially a Se5a's fire power is better than twin vickers.
Linz

Thanks Lindsay! I forgot to consider the interruptor gear in my earlier post about the 2xVickers vs the Vickers/Lewis combo.

Also I agree with Rocky and MayorJim about all the "add ons" as we are having a hard enough time dealing with plane on fire and gun jamming. Of course we're newbies at WoW. I for one am thankful for all of your knowledge and ideas.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Thanks Lindsay! I forgot to consider the interruptor gear in my earlier post about the 2xVickers vs the Vickers/Lewis combo.

Also I agree with Rocky and MayorJim about all the "add ons" as we are having a hard enough time dealing with plane on fire and gun jamming. Of course we're newbies at WoW. I for one am thankful for all of your knowledge and ideas.

That is the best thing about this game. You can play it with or without any of the frills and still enjoy it. it is up to you what you take on board or alter. I often go back and play just the basic game, especially if I am trying out a new scenario.
Rob.

[Bruce]

I'm amazed at the ideas and data that "fell out" of my inquiry. Thanks to all.
I especially like the concept of a narrower arc of fire to reflect rates of fire and/or reduced manoevrability/twitch of less manoeuvrable aircraft.
And, I certainly agree with the statements that "the Pilot" made the difference.
Regarding rates of fire (excluding magazine and jam time considerations) I was not aware that the interuptor gear reduced the rate of fire so much as this, but I accept the data. I was aware that the Lewis gun had a higer rate of fire.
I think that the MG JAM special damage cards suffice for all MGs because I've found no data on jam-rate comparisions, and so assume that both belt fed and magazine fed MGs jammed at the same rate. As a side point, I know from personal experience that weapon maintenance has a significant effect on weapon operation and reliability, so "Bullet Checker" (using a broader definition that includes diligent maintenance) resonates well with me.

Going forward, I still think it worthwhile to see what I can do with some new damage decks for different gun combinations but I'll also try-out some "reduced firing arc" ideas especially for the front guns on the few 2 seaters that are known to have carried twin forward guns.

Also, when playing without altitude rules I'm thinking that the rear blind-spot should be extended to 3/4 or a full range stick.

Again, thanks to all. I'll share the results.
Also I like broadening the "2-seater blind-spot

[sparty]

Actually I think an additional damage deck isn't an outrageous request. A & B work well, but who is to say an E deck wouldn't be an appreciated combo for some kind of "mixed" or homebrew firing situation representing modifications individual pilots made to their armament. There were pilots who added or tweaked their equipment. I don't see another damage deck that works in conjunction with the current rules being outside the scope of the game in any way.

I think the main issue would be in working through the balance issues a more powerful damage deck might introduce. You can, however, reflect greater gun accuracy vs. greater gun damage pretty easily though and diffuse it somewhat by having it be another 44 card damage deck.

For example, perhaps a damage deck with greater damage simulation has more 1 cards, but no 3 cards and an extra 4 card. You'd see an increase number of 1 hits vs. 0 hits and from time to time see that great additional 4 hit.

Perhaps the deck represents guns with greater inherent accuracy. Special damage cards could be increased in frequency while the physical damage done could be lessened.

Clearly a balance would need to exist and the new damage deck shouldn't overshadow the already well balanced A & B decks. I don't think, however, additional damage decks would wreck the game in some way.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I'm with you on this one Keith. You may have noticed that the box to hold the damage cards had two extra compartments in it .One was for the cards I use to decide the outcome of what happens to a pilot who crashes. The other is for an extra deck for pilots with special abilities or that extra deck which must come out in the end. I am sure that we can decide on something here on the site which will fill the bill.
Rob.

[sparty]

The game is already so card based I think you're dead on in terms of pilot special abilities and pilot death cards.

Until damage dice are an official reality, I think cards keep things simple and consistent. While I enjoy the damage chits from the WW2 game, I think cards end up being a nice fit because it's easier to put a thumb on the damage number and reveal the special damage that is public knowledge (smoke + fire) without needing pipe cleaners or additional dongles for the elevation pegs since those require 3d setup and don't really respect the card-only players out there.

[Linz]

How about if you use an additional B card to reflect the guns accuracy. So instead of taking one B or A card for long range then you would take an extra B card as well.
Linz