On Altitude, and Maneuver-Card Selection (unrelated to each other)

[csadn]

1) Altitude Rules

The altitude rules for _WoW_ are about as clunky as the planes themselves were; worse, they provide no real sense of where each airplane is.

Proposed Change:

Altitude is indicated by the number of flight-stand pegs (or numbered chits, if one isn't using minis), plus altitude chips. 5 altitude chips = 1 peg (or equivalent).

Climb Rates are refigured to the following schedule -- for each Climb card played, the plane gets up to:

1, 2: 5 chips/climb card
3, 4: 4 chips/
5, 6: 3 chips/
7, 8: 2 chips/
9, +: 1 chip/

For each Descent card played, the plane may lose altitude chips up to its Climb value, plus 1 per starting HP over 14 (stronger acft. can survive diving more steeply).

Collisions may only occur between units at exactly the same altitude (same numbers of both pegs/eq. *and* chips). Vertical range when shooting is handled as usual.

2) Manuever-Card Selection Sequence

The player selects three cards for his plane on the first movement only; as each movement card is played, the two preceding are slid forward, and a new third card is selected. (In essence: Like _DoW_'s sequence, only having to plot *two* cards ahead -- one had to stay ahead of these acft.)

Opinions?

[MayorJim]

Chris...at you're thinking since we don't use altitude thatmuch I'm not the best to comment here. Your point #2 seems like it might slow the game down a bit...especially if you're flying 2-3 planes at once...just my 2 cents worth...

[sparty]

I think having to select three cards ahead is a major strength for Wings of War vs. Dawn of War.

It really reflects the difficulty in flying these aircraft and how pilots had to consider their airspeed for planning maneuvers to get someone off their tail or to get into the proper attacking position. It leads to some incredibly intricate maneuvers and planning.

Dawn of War has technology on its side. The vastly more maneuverable and powerful aircraft from that era meant that pilots didn't have to plan as far ahead. Dogfights could be much more frantic without the worry of a strut giving out or an engine stalling.

At its heart, the 3 card selection for the movement phase, to me, is one of the core strengths of getting the feel of the era correct.

The altitude rules are relatively simple.

Each plane has its own climb rate. You have to have enough climb chits = to the plane's climb rate to go up 1 level in altitude. I'm not sure where the complexity comes in there. People have, in the past, proposed half-height values but ultimately that kind of thinking over complicates the situation. The act of climbing slows the plane therefore planes at the same flight deck could pitch up a bit to get their shot in. The next flight level when the plane picks up speed again would not lend itself well to the same kind of quick pitch and shot action if you need a "real world" justification for it.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I have done altitude from the first game that I played when I was introduced to WoW, so don't know any different. The Col's dials made it easier but apart from that I have had no problems with the system. It seems to fit in with the general ambience of the game.
Rob.

[Nipotra Paul]

Hi to everybody.
I think that the problem is derived from the fact that when the airplane effects the manoeuvre Immelman, it earns 1 climbed chip, this thing is wrong, because when you perform an Immelman you don't earn anybody quota.This allows to airplanes with not good ability of climb to be able to perform more often this manoeuvre of airplanes with good ability of climb and exploiting the manoeuvre Immelman to succeed in quickly climbing
Then if we eliminate the possibility to earn a chip climbed while we perform an Immelman, this manoeuvre was a cross ellipse, you must not be confused with a 1/2 loop or modern Immelman. automatically we favor the airplanes with good abilities of climb, thay can earn more easily levels of quota.
This is especially very important if we use the rule optional Zoom Divas, indeed this rule makes very well the advantage that had the airplanes had flying
to great quota
I hope I have explained my views with my bad English
Paolo

[wargamer]

Actually, I favor the idea of the climb rate given in the game as the number of non-steep manuever cards you must use before you can get a raise in altitude.

Using the Immelmann always seems confusing because it is trying to get verticle, stalling and then kick the rudder before the plane slips off in a random direction on its own. These aircraft do not have the power to climb in the verticle, they must climb by slowly lifting forward, using the wings lift ability to get higher was the only real way they had.

[ktodd]

I have done altitude from the first game that I played when I was introduced to WoW, so don't know any different. The Col's dials made it easier but apart from that I have had no problems with the system. It seems to fit in with the general ambience of the game.
Rob.

I agree.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Paolo.
I misread the rules at first and we did Immelmanns without a climb chip, until I joined the drome and found out different. We don't seem to have so many head on collisions ant more, but it did seem to play better without the climb card bit. I actually prefer using the loopmove discussed in another earlier thread on here. The so called Kiss method. That is, however, another story.
Rob.

[Nipotra Paul]

Paolo.
I misread the rules at first and we did Immelmanns without a climb chip, until I joined the drome and found out different. We don't seem to have so many head on collisions ant more, but it did seem to play better without the climb card bit. I actually prefer using the loopmove discussed in another earlier thread on here. The so called Kiss method. That is, however, another story.
Rob.

For me if we don't give the chip climb when we perform an Immelman, we also resolve sufficentemente the problem of the loop. Also when we perform a loop we don't purchase anybody quota, in the game to perform a loop you must insert 2 Immelmen that not making you purchase chips brings you (+ or -) to the point of departure and the same quota
Paolo

[Oberst Hajj]

This allows to airplanes with not good ability of climb to be able to perform more often this manoeuvre of airplanes with good ability of climb and exploiting the manoeuvre Immelman to succeed in quickly climbing

If I am reading that correctly, I don't think you have all the rules correct. You can not play the Immelmann and a climb in the same turn. As such, there is no way to abuse the Immelmann to gain "extra climb rate" for a plane.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

That is pretty much the way I tend to treat it in friendly games Paolo, but as the Col says it is not within the official rules.
Rob.

[Pooh]

We revised the climb/dive rules not so much because of issues with climbing but we didn't like the dive rules.
Here are our climb dive rules briefly: (which were more or less stolen from another poster on this site)
There are 4 altitude increments (pips) per level. 1 level = 1 altitude peg
Each plane's climb rate is determined by the maximum number of pips it can climb when playing a climb card.
1 = slowest climb rate, bombers, most 2 seaters and early war planes have this climb rate, takes 4 climb cards to climb 1 level
2 = Slow climbing scouts, mostly from early war, can climb 1 or 2 pips when playing a climb card & takes at least 2 turns to climb 1 level
3= Standard climb rate for most mid & late war scouts, can climb 1,2 or 3 pips per climb card
4=Fastest climbing scouts such as the Fokker DVII, can climb 1 to 4 pips per climb card and climb an entire level in 1 turn.

Collisions occur only when planes are at the same altitude level and number of pips

Diving - Planes have a maximum dive rate of between 3 and 11 pips.
Planes can dive any number of pips up to their maximum rate.
Planes can reduce altitude by 1 pip when playing any non-difficult manouver.
Diving 2 to 4 pips is handled as per the official rules, reducing the plane's altitude by the appropriate number of levels/pips.
Most bombers, 2 seaters and early war scouts have dive rates of 3 or 4.
Diving 5 to 8 pips - move 1 dive card then immediately (in the same round) execute a 2nd dive reducing altitude as needed.
The triplanes, Nieuports and albatros scouts have dive rates of 5, 6 or 7. Most mid/late war scouts are 8
Diving 9 to 11 pips - execute 3 dives in a row (in the same round) reducing altitude as appropriate.
Hard diving planes such as the spads, SE5a, Fokker DVII among others have dive rates of 9 to 11.

We find these rules don't slow the game down over the standard altitude rules and allow scouts to swoop in on victims. It also allows a damaged plane to dive away. Making planes be on the same pip to collide has greatly reduced collisions (but not eliminated it entirely).

Pooh

[Nipotra Paul]

If I am reading that correctly, I don't think you have all the rules correct. You can not play the Immelmann and a climb in the same turn. As such, there is no way to abuse the Immelmann to gain "extra climb rate" for a plane.

This time my English has been worse of the usual one. I know that when I perform an Immelman I cannot use the "card climb", But my discourse is different I don't give chips climb while I am performing an Immelman. Because an Immelman doesn't make to earn anybody I level. the airplane at the end of the manoeuvre has returned to the same quota where it was found to the beginning of the manoeuvre, the Immelman is not a 1/2 loop,
I now try to explain you because an airplane with inferior climb ability can exploit the Immelman.
Frontal fight between Spad XIII and Fokker DrI.
They are both to quota max.
Both use these manoeuvres:1) straight - Immelman - Straight - they are now again of forehead
2) Immelan - Straight - Straight
Now the Fokker cannot perform anymore the immelman he has already used 2 Chips climb the Spad it still has one of it, it can again perform the Immelman it has 3 chips climb and being behind the Fokker or it forces the Fokker to run away with a dive or to perform a Split S
if, instead,Chips are not earned climb the Fokker is able, if it wants, to continue to frontally face the Spad.We don't consider the fact that aftar 3 consecutive immelman the two pilots would have the ache of stomach and they would have returned home.
Really the error that concerns the manoeuvre Immelman has been confirmed by Andrew Angiolino, I have its mail, and this rule is inserted in the official rules of the BGL, and you/he/she will be used to the ending of the Italian championship that will be held in Modena 27/03/11.
It will be used together to other home rules that I have already posted on the forum
Paolo

[Nipotra Paul]

That is pretty much the way I tend to treat it in friendly games Paolo, but as the Col says it is not within the official rules.
Rob.

Really the error that concerns the manoeuvre Immelman has been confirmed by Andrew Angiolino, I have its mail, and this rule is inserted in the official rules of the BGL, and you/he/she will be used to the ending of the Italian championship that will be held in Modena 27/03/11.
It will be used together to other home rules that I have already posted on the forum
Paolo

[Oberst Hajj]

I know that when I perform an Immelman I cannot use the "card climb", But my discourse is different I don't give chips climb while I am performing an Immelman. Because an Immelman doesn't make to earn anybody I level. the airplane at the end of the manoeuvre has returned to the same quota where it was found to the beginning of the manoeuvre, the Immelman is not a 1/2 loop,

Oh yes, I under stand you now. I agree that the Immelmann is not really a half loop and should not be given a climb counter. For the BGL game, is that the part that Andrea is changing in the rules, no climb counter gained when you do an Immelmann?

I now try to explain you because an airplane with inferior climb ability can exploit the Immelman.
Frontal fight between Spad XIII and Fokker DrI.
They are both to quota max.
Both use these manoeuvres:1) straight - Immelman - Straight - they are now again of forehead
2) Immelan - Straight - Straight
Now the Fokker cannot perform anymore the immelman he has already used 2 Chips climb the Spad it still has one of it, it can again perform the Immelman it has 3 chips climb and being behind the Fokker or it forces the Fokker to run away with a dive or to perform a Split S
if, instead,Chips are not earned climb the Fokker is able, if it wants, to continue to frontally face the Spad.We don't consider the fact that aftar 3 consecutive immelman the two pilots would have the ache of stomach and they would have returned home.
Really the error that concerns the manoeuvre Immelman has been confirmed by Andrew Angiolino, I have its mail, and this rule is inserted in the official rules of the BGL, and you/he/she will be used to the ending of the Italian championship that will be held in Modena 27/03/11.
It will be used together to other home rules that I have already posted on the forum
Paolo

I'm still not clear on what the issue here is. Why can the Fokker not do another Immelmann? The planes never run out of climb counters, they can keep on gaining them, the Fokker just goes to the next level of altitude before the SPAD. So it would work out like this on a head on pass:

SPAD at altitude 4, 0 climb counters

Turn 1

Straight - Immelmann - Straight (the SPAD is now at Altitude 4, 1 climb counter)

Turn 2

Immelmann - Straight - Straight (the SPAD is now at Altitude 4, 2 climb counters)

Turn 3

Immelmann - Straight - Straight (the SPAD is now at Altitude 5)


DR.I at altitude 4, 0 climb counters

Turn 1

Straight - Immelmann - Straight (the DR.I now at Altitude 4, 1 climb counter)

Turn 2

Immelmann - Straight - Straight (the DR.I is now at Altitude 5, 0 climb counters)

Turn 3

Immelmann - Straight - Straight (the DR.I is now at Altitude 5, 1 climb counters)

[Nipotra Paul]

Oh yes, I under stand you now. I agree that the Immelmann is not really a half loop and should not be given a climb counter. For the BGL game, is that the part that Andrea is changing in the rules, no climb counter gained when you do an Immelmann?



I'm still not clear on what the issue here is. Why can the Fokker not do another Immelmann? The planes never run out of climb counters, they can keep on gaining them, the Fokker just goes to the next level of altitude before the SPAD. So it would work out like this on a head on pass:

SPAD at altitude 4, 0 climb counters

Turn 1

Straight - Immelmann - Straight (the SPAD is now at Altitude 4, 1 climb counter)

Turn 2

Immelmann - Straight - Straight (the SPAD is now at Altitude 4, 2 climb counters)

Turn 3

Immelmann - Straight - Straight (the SPAD is now at Altitude 5)


DR.I at altitude 4, 0 climb counters

Turn 1

Straight - Immelmann - Straight (the DR.I now at Altitude 4, 1 climb counter)

Turn 2

Immelmann - Straight - Straight (the DR.I is now at Altitude 5, 0 climb counters)

Turn 3

Immelmann - Straight - Straight (the DR.I is now at Altitude 5, 1 climb counters)

Yes, excuse I have added, distractedly, a chips climb both to the Spad and to the Fokker, but the discourse is equal.
The Spad would be already behind the Fokker to the 2 ^ manoeuvre, because the Fokker being already to quota max and having used his chips climb it cannot climb anymore.
Certainly if the two airplanes can still climb quota the reasoning moves to the following movements, but if we use all the quotas, I agree, the Spad increases his advantage, because it has a max quota superior to the Fokker (14 vs 13 if I remember well) and if we also insert the Zoom Dive, for the Fokker it is deep night

I don't know if Andrew will make known officially this change that concerns only the airplanes of the WWI, because for the airplanes of the WWII the 1/2 loop is all right
Paolo

[Oberst Hajj]

Okay, I see you are talking about the max altitude of each of the planes. I don't see this as a problem with the game as that is how it was in real life. Regardless if the SPAD uses the climb card or the Immelmann card, it can reach a higher altitude... so the advantage is not due to the Immelmann card.

I do still agree that the Immelmann should not give the climb counter.

[Nipotra Paul]

Okay, I see you are talking about the max altitude of each of the planes. I don't see this as a problem with the game as that is how it was in real life. Regardless if the SPAD uses the climb card or the Immelmann card, it can reach a higher altitude... so the advantage is not due to the Immelmann card.

I do still agree that the Immelmann should not give the climb counter.

It is not certainly a problem, it is a correct thing, but it was saying you that the Spad after having attached the Fokker with a Zoom Dive (I am making an example) and to have gone down to quota 13 it attach frontally it and with 3 Immelmen it recovers his quota or with 2 it attaches to the shoulders the triplano that cannot climb, instead not assigning Chips climb with the Immelman the Fokker can accept the frontal clash and it forces the Spad to use the manoeuvre climb if it wants to recover his quota.So the two airplanes can use their qualities, the Fokker trying to force the Spad to a closer fight and the Spad trying to attach it with fast dive, rapid attacks and to try to return to its position of advantage forcing the adversary to go down
Mine is not a discourse for the Fokker, because the Spad is my first love even if I sometimes betray it with the SE5a.
Paolo

[Nipotra Paul]

Hi Col.
Attilio has informed me that you are looking for a big number of airplanes. The center of the Nexus is near to my city and I can inquire at the shop where I supply me that availability there is in their stores. if they make international consignments and what the prices are.Even if I think that in this moment is some lacking ones, because Sunday we have the national endings and the BGL for the event has bought + or - 70 airplanes and + or - 8 balls.
Attilio has also told me the prices that the shop "Strategy and Tactic" of Rome does, they seem me excellent In every case I make you know, if you from the patience up to Tuesday because in these days they are in Modena for the national ending
Ciao
Paolo

[IRM]

We revised the climb/dive rules not so much because of issues with climbing but we didn't like the dive rules.
snip
Pooh

Same here, but we went for a simpler solution and just barred any aircraft other than SPADs/SE5a/DVII and the like from executing Overdive manoeuvre sequences safely. Other aircraft can risk it, but draw A-damage cards (counting points and explosions only) on playing the dive and straight cards.

[Pooh]

Same here, but we went for a simpler solution and just barred any aircraft other than SPADs/SE5a/DVII and the like from executing Overdive manoeuvre sequences safely. Other aircraft can risk it, but draw A-damage cards (counting points and explosions only) on playing the dive and straight cards.

We were thinking of something like that but ultimately went with the rules I listed before because it allows hard diving planes to swoop in on their targets. For example: a Spad XIII diving 11 pips (2 levels plus 3 pips) would execute 3 dive moves in a single movement round. This means its opponents have to be very wary of it when its above, even if its a long way off.

Pooh