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Thread: Mesopotamia / Middle East

  1. #1

    Default Mesopotamia / Middle East

    During research on the background to my maiden thread on this forum (Royal Bavarian Air Service - were all those Fokkers fighters?), I came across an article on a Bavarian unit serving in the Middle East during WW1, the link to which I have now lost, having intended to post it on here for anyone interested in modelling such a curiosity.....(sorry!!!). However, as I understand it, that unit was the exception and on the whole, the Fliegertruppen/Luftstreitkräfte did not send complete units to this theatre of the war, instead supplying aircraft and instructors to their Turkish allies, except perhaps FAA030 - is that correct?

    Having recently ordered an "Aerial Desert" game mat from Deep Cut, to be collected at Colours in September, I was wondering if there were any on-line sources of colour schemes for RFC/RAF squadrons in the above theatres, particularly No.1 Squadron Australian Flying Corps (ditto for the Turks, and their German allies/instructors)? It seems odd that all the sources I can find suggest that the same colours were used as for the Western Front, with perhaps PC10 being more common than PC12.

    Also, could someone just remind me of the nearest Foundry/Vallejo colours to PC12 and PC10.

    Thanks all!!!

  2. #2

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    I use Vallejo "Brown Violet" for PC10

    It doesn't really matter what you use, though, since weathering made the colour change no matter which Theatre the plane was in.

    My recent research has really rammed this home, when researching Deutches Afrika Korps uniforms; they seemed to have had both 'Field Grey' and 'Desert Yellow' clothing, but it turns out they were both the same basic colour, but one was "newly arrived in Africa" and the other was "heavily weathered over time"!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  3. #3

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by VonWreckedoften View Post
    Also, could someone just remind me of the nearest Foundry/Vallejo colours to PC12 and PC10.
    See these posts: here and here.

  5. #5

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    If you look at the RAF model of the Aussie F2B it is pretty much white in colour.

    https://www.shapeways.com/product/U4...10581&li=shops

    I did overpaint a couple of my models in Tamiya XF-59 Desert Yellow to go with it though.

  6. #6

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    AK Interactive have a 4 paint set with PC10 early and late and a PC12. If I remember the 4th is a grey. I've repainted some ARES Sopwith Camels and the color match is excellent.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    AK Interactive have a 4 paint set with PC10 early and late and a PC12. If I remember the 4th is a grey. I've repainted some ARES Sopwith Camels and the color match is excellent.
    You don't happen to have a reference for that set do you? I've searched the websites of all the UK stockists and can't find it, or any of the individual colours.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by VonWreckedoften View Post
    You don't happen to have a reference for that set do you? I've searched the websites of all the UK stockists and can't find it, or any of the individual colours.
    Here you go!

    https://ak-interactive.com/product/w...rcraft-colors/

  9. #9

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    The AK Interactive is a nice set - the colors on mine are a bit thin and runny so I usually combine them with something else for coverage.
    They have numerous sets from their 3rd Gen line, love those paints. At least 3 different sets for RAF WWII:

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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by malachi View Post

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    The Very Set I Need! (amongst others!)

    Many thanks for posting!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  11. #11

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    Once again, thanks to all responders (first or not!).

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by VonWreckedoften View Post
    During research on the background to my maiden thread on this forum (Royal Bavarian Air Service - were all those Fokkers fighters?), I came across an article on a Bavarian unit serving in the Middle East during WW1, the link to which I have now lost, having intended to post it on here for anyone interested in modelling such a curiosity.....(sorry!!!).
    I found it - it was under a title that was inaccurate, hence I could not "Google" it properly! I thought it would be of interest to those of you gaming the air war in the Middle East (or Near East as it was known at the time). Here it is:-

    https://www.academia.edu/12692592/Ma...al_Photography

    Another useful aid to research is The German Air Force in the Great War by Major Georg Neumann, particularly Chapter VI - German airmen in other theatres.

    I would be interested in any scenarios that you cook up.

  13. #13

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    Thanks for sharing the title of the book...I have added it to my Amazonian wishlist.

  14. #14

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    Thanks for that Brendan. Earmarked the web site and also have the book on my Amazon list. I have an interest in Bavarians in WWI as my grandmother on my mother's side was from there. Grandfather was a Saxon.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I have an interest in Bavarians in WWI as my grandmother on my mother's side was from there. Grandfather was a Saxon.
    Bet the family gathering were a lot of fun for them.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  16. #16

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    If it helps anyone, I obtained my copy of Neumann's book via Naval & Military Press, who were having a 20% off sale at the time, but their prices are generally pretty good anyway.

  17. #17

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    The German Air Force in the Great War by Major Georg Neumann now added to my wishlist also - thanks for the heads-up!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Bet the family gathering were a lot of fun for them.
    Karl
    Well, they could all agree that the Prussians were entirely to blame for losing the Great War!

    Unfortunately, neither the article, nor the book, give much - or, in fact, any - indication of which aircraft FA304b flew. The Prussian squadrons (FA300-303) appear to have started out with Rumpler C.Is and early mark Albatrosses, but FA304 did not arrive in theatre until 1917 so would have been - IMO - unlikely to have still been using those particular aircraft. The Bavarians were mostly performing aerial photography, so presumably two-seaters of some sort?

    Any better/alternative thoughts gratefully received.
    Last edited by VonWreckedoften; 09-15-2023 at 06:35.

  19. #19

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    Brendan - came across this link in the http://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/1...ungen-300-304/

    Interesting article plus a link to a photo of a two-seater being readied for shipment via railroad from Schleissheim near Munich around 1917:
    https://content.invisioncic.com/r224...1178909530.jpg

    Hope this is useful.
    Last edited by CrashCraig; 09-15-2023 at 13:08.

  20. #20

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    Yes, extremely useful - thank you very much. Do you have any idea what type the aircraft in the photo at the second link is? (I have trouble recognising them when they're fully formed, never mind when they look like one of my unfinished Airfix kits from 50+ years ago!!!)

  21. #21

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    Brendan- I’m not sure what aircraft but it seems to me to have an Albatross shark-like nose.

    However, on the same site there is an amazing article listing all the personnel serving in the FA-304 serving in the Middle East. It lists pilots & crew KIA & wounded and in some cases the aircraft! One entry dated mid-January 1918 has crew wounded flying a AEG CIV. This is a late war two-seater. I couldn’t copy the link but if you do a search on “greatwarforum FA304 personnel” you might find it. I’ll try later when I have a little more time. Good luck!

  22. #22

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    That second picture reminds me of a recent foray into Rise of Flight (which is a PC game). I thought I would fly a German 2 seater. I think it was a DFW, see screen shots. No forward vision at all except for the back of the engine. Had to use Track IR and lean out of the side of the cockpit to see where I was going. Awful stuff, I really cannot imagine what the designers were thinking when they made some of these planes.

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    Last edited by Baxter; 09-15-2023 at 17:40.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashCraig View Post
    However, on the same site there is an amazing article listing all the personnel serving in the FA-304 serving in the Middle East. It lists pilots & crew KIA & wounded and in some cases the aircraft! One entry dated mid-January 1918 has crew wounded flying a AEG CIV. This is a late war two-seater. I couldn’t copy the link but if you do a search on “greatwarforum FA304 personnel” you might find it. I’ll try later when I have a little more time. Good luck!
    Thanks, I had already found that article in my wanderings, and hadn't realised that that was where the photograph was from! It appears that the late arrival of FA 304b and 305 added some more modern kit to the inventories of the previous formations (FA 300, 301, 302 & 303); it also seems that the Germans didn't really alter their paint schemes very much - or at all in some cases - to match the theatre. I suppose with the uncrowded skies around Palestine and Mesopotamia/Iraq it didn't really matter that much!!!

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    That second picture reminds me of a recent foray into Rise of Flight (which is a PC game). I thought I would fly a German 2 seater. I think it was a DFW, see screen shots. No forward vision at all except for the back of the engine. Had to use Track IR and lean out of the side of the cockpit to see where I was going. Awful stuff, I really cannot imagine what the designers were thinking when they made some of these planes.

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    It does make you wonder why they wasted their time putting that teeny-tiny windshield in, doesn't it?

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by VonWreckedoften View Post
    Yes, extremely useful - thank you very much. Do you have any idea what type the aircraft in the photo at the second link is? (I have trouble recognising them when they're fully formed, never mind when they look like one of my unfinished Airfix kits from 50+ years ago!!!)
    I would say either an Albatross C.III or a Rumpler C.IV. The high upper wing, and the large cylinder row are what makes me think so.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  26. #26

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    I'd suggest an Albatros C.VII as another option to look at.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  27. #27

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    Thanks chaps!

  28. #28

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    Hi Brendan,

    I'm not sure if this link is really anything to do with your main line of enquiry, but it is a very interesting article. Go to https://www.crossandcockade.com/ and follow the "News" link to "Articles" to find "The Air War in the Southern Caucasus 1916-17". Its written from the perspective of the German support given to Turkey during the fight against Russian forces and their worry that the Russians might link up with the British in Mesopotamia.

  29. #29

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    Hi, Mike - and thanks, that was fascinating. Whilst not directly related to what I'm currently looking into, I have now added Russian/Turkish air service options to my potential game scenarios - not something you come across very often, even among WoW/WoG afficionados!

    The idea of the British and Russians linking up in the Middle (at that time Near) East is something I had never come across in my WW1 studies, and quite mind-boggling when you consider "The Great Game" as it was played out through the 19th Century.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeemagnus View Post
    Hi Brendan,

    I'm not sure if this link is really anything to do with your main line of enquiry, but it is a very interesting article. Go to https://www.crossandcockade.com/ and follow the "News" link to "Articles" to find "The Air War in the Southern Caucasus 1916-17". Its written from the perspective of the German support given to Turkey during the fight against Russian forces and their worry that the Russians might link up with the British in Mesopotamia.
    I would think that such a worry was on par with the concerns that the DAK would roll through Egypt and the Middle East, and link with the Turks for an attack against the USSR in the Caucasus.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus



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