Is anyone considering tabling one of these? Has anyone done one?
This is a representation of a B-36B, before all the fuselage turrets were removed. Each of the arcs is a twin 20mm cannon turret.
Stats? Units?
Convair B-36B Peacemaker
Is anyone considering tabling one of these? Has anyone done one?
This is a representation of a B-36B, before all the fuselage turrets were removed. Each of the arcs is a twin 20mm cannon turret.
Stats? Units?
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Man, you want something bigger than a B-29 on the table
I can probably stat it, but how to shoot it down?
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
You know I don't have a lot of the planes I do cards for. And this was never in the Battle of Britain, the period in which I try to limit my collection of WWII planes.
However, someone asked... And they specified the "B" variant, as I suspect they wanted the gun platform. The Air Force went the way of the "Featherweight" versions, because nothing could reach them and keep up with them at altitude. From what I read, if all the cannons were firing, the electrical systems would start to fail, and the failures become catastrophic. So, a special rule should be imposed that if all cannons keep firing, the plane eventually looses flight and engine controls.
Latest colored version with turrets exposed:
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Hmm . . . a worthy project to return with.
Good to see you back in the circuit Dave, I expect we'll see some 'Elf benefits' during your visit !Originally Posted by clipper1801
Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"
That's one monster aircraft. David, good to see you posting again. I do think of you every time I enter my games room and see that amazing Zeppelin on display
Maybe a Special Rule that each time you fire more than four turrets (or six? do we include nose/tail or are they separate systems from the central computer-controlled twins?) draw a damage chit and if it comes up smoke or fire the Cascade Failure chain potentially starts, and each time AFTER that you exceed "Safe Gun Use" you add another chit to that turn's draw?
Well, if you're up to the challenge, so am I. Something to do while the laundry spins Sunday
David;
Your post is a sight for sore eyes.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
From Wikipedia:
"Recoil vibration from gunnery practice often caused the aircraft's electrical wiring to jar loose or the vacuum tube electronics to malfunction, leading to failure of the aircraft controls and navigation equipment; this contributed to the crash of B-36B 44-92035 on 22 November 1950."
Karl, what does this sound like to you for "safe" vs "danger" firing?
Oh yes, definitely with the 20mm gun turrets a blazing! It's about time the USA had big punch for those late war Axis jets and the Korean migs. This is what makes this gaming so much fun, what if's. I can see the neat scenarios gamers could come up with.
7th Bombardment Wing (Heavy), Alaska
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Man, you want something bigger than a B-29 on the table
I can probably stat it, but how to shoot it down?
Karl
very carefully and from long range lol.
drumroll please.....
welcome back dave!
SO GOOD to see you posting again!
I've really missed you and your Elves!
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Oh ya, luv it!! now for some stats for those 20mm cannon turrets. What kind of stats to go with her? Can someone with that?
Very difficult to say. The best I can think of is to draw a damage chit (B) of your own, and apply any special damage.
Smoke and fire are ignored. Rudder damage is permanent. Pilot is navigation loss (scenario point loss (or gain for the opponents). Explosion is, well...yeh.
Possibly, only draw if 3+ turrets fire in one phase.
Karl
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Actually, the B-29s are very tough targets for late war jets. However, I like your thoughts on what-ifs; a man after my own heart.
With 2 20mms in each turret, they would be C-C/C each. Serious firepower, though in our game, I'd almost rather have 4 50cal brownings (B-B/B).
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
OK, here's what I have:
Deck: M(b); Hits: 140!!!; ceiling: 14; climb: 6
Yeh this is a beast. And fast too.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
I think it would be cool to have two different fire power versions. We could also special effect cards for electricals overheating, gun jams, oxygen malfunction having to drop down to non-oxygen safe levels. Any other ideas?
This is complicated. There are about 15 crew, but Andrea said they don't always represent all crew, if they weren't "combat" essential.
Crew for a B-36B: a pilot, copilot, radar operator/bombardier, navigator, flight engineer, two radiomen, three forward gunners, and five rear gunners.
I represented 10:
The numbers bounce around because other official cards are organized (IMHO) for standard and advanced rules. If you aren't playing altitude, you don't use the ventral gun positions. All the cards I've looked at have the ventral gun positions last. So, in trying not to cross positional indicator lines, I had to put crew icons out of order.
Technically, any of the rear gunners (4, 5, 7, and 8) could swap positions nearly immediately. One phase of firing? The tail gunner would be up to three phases, or a bit more. Moving gunners from forward to aft positions would be a few turns, pulling through the communication tunnel between pressurized compartments along the length of the fuselage. The forward gunners could be interchangeable in a few phases (1 in a turn, but 2 and 3 within a phase). Any of the remaining, non-combat essential crew could be "Emergency" crew, and able to fill in for the pilots or gunners. House rules on how effective, if allowed.
Rule Source: FAQs & Points of Interest - Ace Skills & Optional Rules (Thanks Dave [flash])Emergency Pilot:
An observer/gunner with this skill can abandon his role to replace an incapacitated pilot.
Being busy with unfamiliar controls, he fires with the usual restrictions for a rookie pilot.
Mark the abandoned role circle with a casualty marker.
To remember this skill has been used, discard the casualty marker of the incapacitated pilot and turn this card face down.
Special rules for specific airplanes can forbid some members, in inaccessible places such as the upper gun platforms or engine nacelles, from using this skill. (Staaken)
(standard rules) (Crew skill) (Multi-engine only)
Last edited by OldGuy59; 07-11-2023 at 10:20.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Maybe this leviathan should also get a 1x/game chance to have the flight engineer try to repair a damaged engine inflight too. (I'd expect that to be no more than changing sparkplugs, though--those engines would need a cooldown time before any work could start, and figure only taking one offline at a time.)
I didn't read anything in my research that says this plane had the same sharing capability of the B-29 Fire Control System, so each turret is aimed by one gunner.
PS: Discussion and card production for the B-29 Superfortress: Boeing B-29 Superfortress
Last edited by OldGuy59; 07-11-2023 at 10:16.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Repairing damage to an engine in-flight. From cannon damage? Like a cylinder head shot through, or busted fuel lines? There was some mention of the wings being big enough for crew to access the engines in flight, but I don't see repairing them in the middle of shooting. The Flight Engineer would be too busy managing the remaining engines to be wandering about the plane with a wrench.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
Looks like nothing exciting, just incidental stuff on the long two DAYS flights to/from the fight.
https://www.historynet.com/the-peacemaker/The walk-in wings also made it possible to do some minor accessory-section work on the inboard engines. “Between the walkaround air bottle, the fresh-air rush, fuel and oil fumes, and the roar of the engines, doing the actual repair was simple, though it was always a memorable experience,” recalled Staff Sgt. Bill Holding.
Those
So good to see a post from you again. The elves must be drooling over this project!
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
OK, I found a worthy opponent for this beast:
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
,
So we can talk later over where I've been for a few years, let it be known several of my dear friends on the site helped me back. Not as far as sanity but closer!
First impulse was to do the math. 230' wing span converts at 1/200" scale brings us to wing span of 13.8" A visit to the Clipper Aviation Kit Library yielded (3) Atlantis Models kits still available and done in 1/184" scale which yields a wing span of 15". Perilously close for our purposes! Very convenient since the elves are still moving. . .
Clipper swings into action!
Time to get some more popcorn in!
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Great to see you're back, David.
As others have said, we really missed your awesome additions to the site.
Popcorn??Clipper swings into action!
Time to get some more popcorn in!
More like a single malt scotch (or a brandy in your case)
Good to hear from you again, my friend.
So we can talk later over where I've been for a few years, let it be known several of my dear friends on the site helped me back. Not as far as sanity but closer!
First impulse was to do the math. 230' wing span converts at 1/200" scale brings us to wing span of 13.8" A visit to the Clipper Aviation Kit Library yielded (3) Atlantis Models kits still available and done in 1/184" scale which yields a wing span of 15". Perilously close for our purposes! Very convenient since the elves are still moving. . .
Closer to sanity is a good thing, as I can attest to.
And I agree with close enough being very convenient. When you get that big, what's an inch or so between friends
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
My dad told tales of thundering skies filled with a magnesium overcast.
Peacemaker. Should be Piecemaker. Makes pieces out of any intercepting fighters.
As in, to paraphrase the Israeli F-15 community, "World's Largest Distributor of Bf109 and Fw190 Parts"?
One other note, with proper use of Bomber Box tactics a B-36 shouldn't NEED to fire all its guns at once, they have overlapping coverage from their wingmen.
My personal preferred "dirty trick" for Luftwaffe Extermination would be send out a wave of B-36s with no bombs as escorts for the older bombers, each Magnesium Overcast mothershipping two or three F-85 Goblins in its bays. "See, Herr Hitler, WE can do 'Wunderwaffen' too...take your best shot at our new Flying Aircraft Carriers, if you DARE."
The "SHIELD Helicarrier" of 1946?
If they could have gotten the Goblin to actually work, that would be very interesting to see.
Of course, at this point we'd have Ta.183s and who knows what else in opposition.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Ruhrstahl X-4 air to air missiles for starters
Possibly, though probably not with the single seat jets. Too hard to control both joysticks
Now, maybe with the Arado Ar 234D (2-seater, proposed), if they were built.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
It was tested in Fw190s, and there's always the two seat Me262......
I could see an interesting scenario with missile carriers trying to get into position to launch from outside the AA gun range with single seater jets fending off Allied fighters
Well, I have an Atlantis B-36 kit on order... now if only I could find a conversion for the XB's flush cockpit.
To be sure, it would be.
Given the size of the B-36, you might have to go to 1/300 scale aircraft.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
And if we're Luft46'ing that, don't forget P-80s and P-84s.To be sure, it would be.
Given the size of the B-36, you might have to go to 1/300 scale aircraft.
Karl
True, though how good they were as an escort for bombers, I don't know. Have to look into what they did with the B-29s over N. Korea.
There's some discussion on this over on the FW board, stating that they had night escorts of F-94s and F-3B Sky Knights, so maybe, if they had the range.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
XP-84 first flight missed V-J by only about four months; I was trying to keep to "ALMOST made it."
EDIT: Ugh, looks like the only XB conversion is 1:72 and LONG out of production, and the B-model is too late for my comfort zone unless Andrea announces a Korea expansion.
Also, XB was desinged for 10x .50BMG plus 5x 37mm cannon--I'll need to go through Detail & Scale and Warbird Tech o figure out how many of what went where.
So, starting from the nose...
*Fwd Upper/Lower 2x37mm ea, 100rpg (think bigger, pressurized B-17 balls)
*Waist Upper/Lower 4x .50MG each, with B-29-style central fire-control
*Til 2x .50MG plus 1x 37mm (interesting to note B-29 design was 2x .50 plus 1x 20mm)
"So, why wasn't this ever fitted? Mainly, weight, and complexity. This whole arrangement was MILES overweight for an airframe that needed to be as light as possible in order to make its specification of a 10,000 mile range. No matter what anyone did, the system was too heavy. Second, the computers needed to create a system where any gunner could take over any gun on a plane 160 feet long proved impossible to develop. There were other factors as well- as the war progressed, more and more things needed to be stuffed into the nose of a combat-worthy aircraft- bombardier, radar, AND a nose turret. The XB-36 airliner canopy just didn't have enough room for all this. There were a few proposals for barbettes on the sides of the nose, but these created so much drag they were an obvious no-go. In the end, the only option was to just give each gunner a dedicated gun of their own, relatively close to their sighting station. A step backwards from the B-29, but a necessary one."
http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/...investigation/
Worth noting that several of the massive beast's 15-20 man crew were relievers so they could fly missions in shifts--good chance that you have two pilots chilling in the rear crew-rest area ready to move up in case one of the guys on the flight deck eats a hit. So Emergency Pilot wouldn't apply here except for the three turns getting a relief up to the nose.
Some stats cooking based on XB/YB at https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...753#post593753 that might be helpful.
Anybody else gonna build one of these, or have anything else you need USAAF/USAF black tailnumbers for? I ask because it's gonna be absurd to waste an entire 5x8 decal paper sheet on ONE set of tailnumbers, so I thought I'd see if anybody wanted some run for them at the same time for just postage, costs of your share of the sheet and maybe a buck to Keith to help keep the lights on here.
A little late but supplemental, found this chart in Tony Landis's "Magnesium Overcast" showing fire arcs and combat formation.
Do note that forward upper turrets CAN rotate and fire almost dead aft, and lowers dead ahead! So each of the non-tail 20mm's has a 180-degree fire arc, and in theory if you're a hostile fighter making a flank attack it can broadside you with three turrets like a flying battleship.
Note in the "Hometown" system, the main thing breaking the arcs into pies based on around 30-45 degree angles from centerline is having a "safety zone" before crossing another aircraft with your line of fire. Try to tailgate Lead and you've got TWENTY-TWO 20mm's opening up on you all at once... note how the arcs interlock so that no matter what angle you approach from you're basically takin a small warship worth of flak.
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