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Thread: Gritty Goblin Games Wings of War/Glory, 5 Jan 2023

  1. #1

    Default Gritty Goblin Games Wings of War/Glory, 5 Jan 2023

    AAR #1 While it may be a new year in the real world, at Gritty Goblin Games it was September 1917 as a pair of Belgian fighters spot a German DFW C.V two-seater on a photo recon mission.

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    Not knowing which way the German would go, I had my fighters tun in opposite directions, hoping my superior speed would bring the wrong facing aircraft to the fight quick enough.

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    The S.P.A.D. VII inflicts some serious damage.

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    After getting turned around and racing across the map to meet the German, my Hanriot HD.1 is dealt a savage blow.

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    Now the S.P.A.D. VII gets a nasty. Two B cards at close range - no left turn, no right turn. Fortunately, there was enough room on the table so I could play a straight, Immelmann turn and another straight. But the DFW is heading for its last photo op.

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    Now I'm turned around, but the two-seater has finished taking their third photograph. Perhaps I can catch him before he returns to base?

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    The S.P.A.D. is hot on the German's tail.

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    "Missed him by that much."

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    Two more hits at close range.

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    And that was enough to finish off the German two-seater. Craig was holding on by one damage point when he drew the '4.'

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    All airplanes are from my end-of-year discount purchase from Shapeways. All models by ReducedAircraftFactory.
    So how many books are in your personal library?

  2. #2

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    AAR #2 Craig and I switched sides for the second game. Craig learned from my error and had both fighters play three straights to see which way I would go. Then both fighters could gang up on the two-seater. The Hanriot and the DFW exchange gunfire at close range.

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    The Hanriot is ablaze and also suffered a gun jam.

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    The Hanriot circles away to clear its gun jam while the S.P.A.D. comes charging in from my blind spot.

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    The S.P.A.D. and my rear gunner exchange fire.

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    The S.P.A.D. charged past the DFW and is swinging around to attack from the rear, but my gunner has the bead on him.

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    The pesky S.P.A.D. is still after me, and now the Hanriot closes after clearing its gun jam.

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    The S.P.A.D. just will not quit, while the Hanriot and the DFW are overlapping just slightly. But an overlap means no exchange of gunfire.

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    Still overlapping and the S.P.A.D. will not give up. Neither will my rear gunner.

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    Further overlap, but the S.P.A.D. and DFW exchange furious gunfire.

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    This exchange is enough to finish off the S.P.A.D. Note the Hanriot at the top of the photograph is waiting to replace the overlapped card.

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    The Hanriot's fire is finally out, but there is no rest for my rear gunner. I think he has an Ace ability of 'Infinite Bullets.'

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    More gunfire from my observer/gunner.

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    An the Hanriot takes it on the chin. To add insult to injury, if this hadn't downed the Hanriot, the airplane was set on fire a second time. That would surely have finished him off soon enough.

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    And the DFW survives to fly another day.

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    Note that the S.P.A.D. and DFW were destroyed in their first game while the Hanriot was destroyed in the second game. Not a good night for Daryl's lovely models.
    Last edited by RJG173; 01-07-2023 at 16:32. Reason: Complete AAR
    So how many books are in your personal library?

  3. #3

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    That DFW almost got away. A squeeker but a win is a win!

  4. #4

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    The second game is where my Hanriot suffers the "FO Kyte Easy Immolation" effect

  5. #5

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    Nice action, looks like a fun option for a 3 player game. Thanks for posting.

  6. #6

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    Thanks for posting.
    It was good to see a DFW in action.

  7. #7

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    Nice game!

    One question, though...
    With no Left turn and no Right turn, how did the SPAD turn around in the Immelmann?
    It should have just flown straight off the board.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Nice game!

    One question, though...
    With no Left turn and no Right turn, how did the SPAD turn around in the Immelmann?
    It should have just flown straight off the board.
    You do realize that an Immelmann turns an airplane 180 degrees? Of course you do.
    So how many books are in your personal library?

  9. #9

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    I think Tim is saying that technically if you can't turn in either direction you can't do an immelmann. I can't see anything in the official rules to prevent it, but I play WoW not WoG so maybe that is a difference...

  10. #10

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    Good to see Darryl's planes in action.

    I hope to get more of mine into AARs in the upcoming months.
    I, too, took advantage of the Shapeways year-end sale.

    Picture uploading is becoming a real pain on the site of late.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonfrog View Post
    I think Tim is saying that technically if you can't turn in either direction you can't do an immelmann. I can't see anything in the official rules to prevent it, but I play WoW not WoG so maybe that is a difference...
    I think that if you have a jam preventing you turning it would also prevent you from executing an immelmann turn.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  12. #12

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    Robert- glad you were able to finally post the pics for the second game or as I like to call it the Hanriot bar-b-que! Great write up too

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJG173 View Post
    You do realize that an Immelmann turns an airplane 180 degrees? Of course you do.
    Yes, of course I do - but to have an aircraft physically perform an Immelmann (actually called an Immelmann TURN - hint, hint) the pilot MUST put the rudder hard over, one way or the other, to make the plane turn around,

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonfrog View Post
    I think Tim is saying that technically if you can't turn in either direction you can't do an immelmann.
    Precisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I think that if you have a jam preventing you turning it would also prevent you from executing an immelmann turn.

    Rob.
    Again, precisely.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonfrog View Post
    I think Tim is saying that technically if you can't turn in either direction you can't do an immelmann. I can't see anything in the official rules to prevent it, but I play WoW not WoG so maybe that is a difference...
    He is but maybe he's thinking of the real Immelmann (similar to a hammerhead turn) that requires rudder input, not the more modern half loop that doesn't and is what the rules are erroneously based upon, which allows it.
    So pay your money & take your choice - personally I stick with the original so rudder damage would preclude making an Immelmann for me but many play to the rule on this one.

    "He is wise who watches"

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    He is but maybe he's thinking of the real Immelmann (similar to a hammerhead turn) that requires rudder input, not the more modern half loop that doesn't and is what the rules are erroneously based upon, which allows it.
    So pay your money & take your choice - personally I stick with the original so rudder damage would preclude making an Immelmann for me but many play to the rule on this one.
    That's been an interesting discussion about immelmanns. We have always played that you can do an immelmann with rudder damage because all the cards for the three manoeuvres are straight lines.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    He is but maybe he's thinking of the real Immelmann (similar to a hammerhead turn) that requires rudder input, not the more modern half loop that doesn't and is what the rules are erroneously based upon, which allows it.
    So pay your money & take your choice - personally I stick with the original so rudder damage would preclude making an Immelmann for me but many play to the rule on this one.
    I had never really thought about this. Makes sense that if you get both direction jams an Immelmann is not possible.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Windy Jack View Post
    We have always played that you can do an immelmann with rudder damage because all the cards for the three manoeuvres are straight lines.
    Personally, I just see a rudderless plane doing an Immelmann as just a way for the player to get around the restriction of being forced to fly straight ahead. Simultaneous Left and Right rudder jams occur so infrequently, why not just tolerate (and enjoy!) them?

    As for the "half loop" theory, so many of these early planes were so underpowered that I don't personally believe that they could achieve the required vertical climb part of the manoeuvre.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  18. #18

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    On page 11 of RAP, “the ‘left rudder jam’ symbol indicatesthat the rudder of the airplane is jammed. This special damage is kept secret. The aieplane cannot choose maneuvers to the left (maneuvers that have an arrow pointing left in the lower right corner of the card) for the next turn.” Similar language applies to the right rudder jam.

    When I look at an Immelmann turn card, I do not see a left arrow or right arrow in the corner, but a downward pointing arrow. I interpret that as meaning the Immelmann card is NOT a left or right maneuver. So it is legal.

    I know you’ll argue that in “real life” an Immelmann turn is not possible, but this isn’t real life. It’s a game which has some simplifications for game play and not all situations are covered. For instance, in “real life” rudder damage does not magically fix itself. It should be permanent until the airplane has landed and can be repaired.

    If you want to play that simultaneous right and left rudder damage means no Immelmann turn, you can do that. But it is a “house rule” for you, and I play by the rules stated in RAP.
    So how many books are in your personal library?

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Personally, I just see a rudderless plane doing an Immelmann as just a way for the player to get around the restriction of being forced to fly straight ahead. Simultaneous Left and Right rudder jams occur so infrequently, why not just tolerate (and enjoy!) them?

    As for the "half loop" theory, so many of these early planes were so underpowered that I don't personally believe that they could achieve the required vertical climb part of the manoeuvre.
    In my games I now also take your stance on the Immelmann Tim.

    "It isn't wrong", murmured Henry to no one in particular, "but we just don't do it"

    You might say that players were looking for a loophole, but of course I would never think of uttering such a Blasphemy!

    Rob.
    Last edited by Flying Officer Kyte; 01-11-2023 at 03:08.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJG173 View Post
    On page 11 of RAP, “the ‘left rudder jam’ symbol indicatesthat the rudder of the airplane is jammed. This special damage is kept secret. The aieplane cannot choose maneuvers to the left (maneuvers that have an arrow pointing left in the lower right corner of the card) for the next turn.” Similar language applies to the right rudder jam.

    When I look at an Immelmann turn card, I do not see a left arrow or right arrow in the corner, but a downward pointing arrow. I interpret that as meaning the Immelmann card is NOT a left or right maneuver. So it is legal.

    I know you’ll argue that in “real life” an Immelmann turn is not possible, but this isn’t real life. It’s a game which has some simplifications for game play and not all situations are covered. For instance, in “real life” rudder damage does not magically fix itself. It should be permanent until the airplane has landed and can be repaired.

    If you want to play that simultaneous right and left rudder damage means no Immelmann turn, you can do that. But it is a “house rule” for you, and I play by the rules stated in RAP.
    That's fine, whatever floats your.....oooh, hang on, almost made a <<other game>> reference!

    The RAP doesn't cover this at all, one way or the other - the arrow on the bottom of the Immelman card is just a description of the direction the model will face at the end of the turn, which is inconsistent with the sideslip cards, whose arrow does NOT depict model facing at the turn's end! The Immel can't show both Left and Right arrows, or it would prevent anyone with single rudder damage from performing the manoeuvre, owing to the presence of the compromised direction arrow.

    Actually, rudder "damage" can, and did, sometimes fix itself in combat; a control wire hooked on a bit of damaged fuselage can be, and sometimes was, shaken loose by the efforts of the pilot stamping away at the rudder control bar. Similarly, a bit of debris caused by damage can get stuck in the rudder hinge joint, and could be popped free by similar determined efforts.

    There are lots of discrepancies in the Rules as Written, and the game as a whole (1 single machine gun being almost twice as likely to start a fire as 2 machine guns; the variable Overdive length based on observation of other aircraft, etc.) so we all just have to legislate in a way which suits us best.

    I do for my games, you do for yours.
    Just so long as the players are all having an enjoyable time!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    As for the "half loop" theory, so many of these early planes were so underpowered that I don't personally believe that they could achieve the required vertical climb part of the manoeuvre.
    I used to be skeptical about that too, but one day I was reading Practical Flying, a little 1918 book by W.G. McMinnies that was reproduced by Empire Interactive with their (old) Flying Corps computer game:
    Looping. Should he do this [a steep dive], and should he, in addition, put his engine on full at the same time as he pulls back his stick to the limit, he will, in all probability, loop, although this is not by any means the safest or best method of performing this very simple but, at the same time, very effective maneuver. A pupil who wants to loop should select a machine that is known to loop easily such as an Avro or B.E.2c [emphasis mine]. He then ascends to a height of 3000ft or 4000ft, gradually puts the nose of the machine down to a speed of 80mph or 85mph (75knots or 80 knots), attaining this maximum by a more gentle descent than would be possible if he attempted to nose dive to this speed. He then pulls the control lever as far back as it will go, in one firm, strong pull, the effect of which is to cause the machine to rear vertically upwards and over. When he is upside down, he will se the ground below him and must then cut off his engine and a few moments later ease the stick, gradually centering it. The engine can be switched on again when the steepness of the nose dive has been materially decreased. The first part of the pull-back should be slower than the latter, on account of the greater speed of the machine in the early stages of the loop. The control must be held back until the machine has completed the loop.

    Before looping, the pilot should see that the machine is perfectly trued up and that all the wires are correctly adjusted. He should make sure that his belt is strong enough to hold him, in case he should make a bad loop or stall in a more or less upside-down position. If he did a correct loop there would be no need for him to wear a belt, as the centrifugal force of the maneuver would pin him to his seat.
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    These days, I figure that if you can do it in a R.A.F. B.E.2c, you can do it in almost anything (big bombers excepted).

  22. #22

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    So, compulsory "Dive" followed by three-card-"Immelmann"; a four-card manoeuvre?

    What about machines which DON'T loop easily?

    It's all getting too complex; just play it how you like to run it...
    In my games, no rudder, no "Immelmann"
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  23. #23

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    I had thought the Immelmann turn consisted of a half loop then a roll (no rudder input required). In an admittedly brief online search, I found only the half-loop/roll version referenced...but, as someone noted, one can operate a game as one wishes.

    Re: the BE2 ability to loop....I believe Capt Grinnell-Milne mentioned this in his memoir. He noted that BE2 pilots were forbiddened from attempting a loop because the maneuver was risky and of no value in combat. Nevertheless, sometimes young adventurous pilots did loop the BE2 just for the thrill of it.

    This reminds me of my experience flying underpowered R/C trainers......dive to increase speed, pull back on the elevator stick until the plane half loops, then let gravity do the rest (for the most part). Quite exciting for a novice pilot. Similarly, a plane without ailerons can be made to roll with just elevator and rudder input...also exciting for the novice to attempt.
    Last edited by Larry R.; 01-18-2023 at 06:45.



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