Tactical climb

[SgtRock57]

My group uses Zoe’s “Ultra Simple Altitude” rules. Without going into much detail, all planes climb in a tactical sense, at 1 level per turn. Last week the question came up, IF you were going to assign a 2 level climb per tactical climb, what planes deserve that?

[malachi]

I'd assume those with a climb rate of 2? p14 RAP
Just speculating though, my group uses different simplified alt rules that respect the given climb rates.

[SgtRock57]

I'd assume those with a climb rate of 2? p14 RAP
Just speculating though, my group uses different simplified alt rules that respect the given climb rates.

im not at all being confrontational here, just asking questions that my group asked me. I'm kind of the leader of the club. You have a picture of a SE5a, do you believe that it could climb with the DR1 in a spinning tight tactical dogfight?
And again pls, I'm just asking

[OldGuy59]

Hmmm... Climbing in a dogfight?

As far as I can recall, planes in WWI were very worried about impacting the ground in a furball, not climbing out of it.

Climb rates were for getting into position before engaging in a fight. Which is why the higher altitude position was favoured by pilots. Once the fight started, it was all "downhill," as planes lost energy and speed in tight turns.

But, if you were to allow planes to gain altitude in a dogfight, the lower the number for "Climb Rate" the better the performance in climbing.

Link -> Ares Games - Downloads - WGF Climb Rates & Max Altitude Table

Anything with a "2" has the ability to gain one altitude for every two climb maneuvers. Gaining 2 levels of altitude in one maneuver would be four times the capability of the best planes?

PS: The Fokker Dr.1 was designed to climb faster, both by wing design and by the pitch of the propeller. Which is why it is slower in overall speed. It was maximized for climb. This had to do, IIRC, because most times the Entente planes were coming over the German lines hunting for targets, and the Germans wanted to climb to meet them, or get above them. Again, not to out-climb opponents in a dogfight. Although, if the opportunity to waste energy in a climb to gain a height advantage presented itself, I'm sure it was done.

[malachi]

im not at all being confrontational here, just asking questions that my group asked me. I'm kind of the leader of the club. You have a picture of a SE5a, do you believe that it could climb with the DR1 in a spinning tight tactical dogfight?
And again pls, I'm just asking

huh? I don't understand your attitude/concern? I was not at all confrontational, simply answered the question to the best of my knowledge. Yes, the SE5a had an excellent climb rate, not a pure climber as the Dr.I, but much faster.
SE5a

[SgtRock57]

huh? I don't understand your attitude/concern? I was not at all confrontational, simply answered the question to the best of my knowledge. Yes, the SE5a had an excellent climb rate, not a pure climber as the Dr.I, but much faster.
SE5a

Not at all you Chris, I thought I might be coming across with an attitude, I’m just trying to see how other people handle “house rule” tactical climbing

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I should not worry about coming over with an attitude Dan.
If I or the other moderators think you are out of line we will soon let you know.
Rob.

[flash]

.. I’m just trying to see how other people handle “house rule” tactical climbing

I use my own alt rules, Dan, I treat a peg as a climb chit, all planes can gain or lose a chit on most manoeuvre cards as they want (there are exceptions), on 'proper' climb or dive cards they gain/lose multiple chits based roughly on their given rate of climb.
For example, machines with a climb rate of 2 can gain max 6 pegs on a proper climb card, those with a climb rate of 6 or more will only gain a couple of pegs. Doing it this way I find it keeps the relative performances about right.
This means an alt level is about 12 pegs - this can bring it's own problems but I find with similar performing machines it's not not a great issue & you can always adjust the height levels.
This is where I started:
https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...ing-the-Moves-!
https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1361

[SgtRock57]

I use my own alt rules, Dan, I treat a peg as a climb chit, all planes can gain or lose a chit on most manoeuvre cards as they want (there are exceptions), on 'proper' climb or dive cards they gain/lose multiple chits based roughly on their given rate of climb.
For example, machines with a climb rate of 2 can gain max 6 pegs on a proper climb card, those with a climb rate of 6 or more will only gain a couple of pegs. Doing it this way I find it keeps the relative performances about right.
This means an alt level is about 12 pegs - this can bring it's own problems but I find with similar performing machines it's not not a great issue & you can always adjust the height levels.
This is where I started:
https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...ing-the-Moves-!
https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1361

Thank you Dave, as usual, great stuff

[Flying Helmut]

I don't differentiate at all between "Tactical" climbing and ordinary climbing.

If you point the nose up and apply max. power, you'll climb at the same rate no matter what your situation vis-a-vis other planes.

I tend to follow the climb rates as written, but then I'm able to assimilate game minutiae whilst many of my opponents are not!

If using peg climbs and avoiding climb counters, I tend to play "1 up 2 down", so a climb card will gain one peg, but a dive card will lose TWO pegs (this makes altitude much harder to gain than to lose).
When scouts fight two-seaters, I double the climb card requirement for the tandems, so that TWO climb cards are required to gain one peg.
A bit over simplified, but it seems to work.

[SgtRock57]

Hmmm... Climbing in a dogfight?

As far as I can recall, planes in WWI were very worried about impacting the ground in a furball, not climbing out of it.

Climb rates were for getting into position before engaging in a fight. Which is why the higher altitude position was favoured by pilots. Once the fight started, it was all "downhill," as planes lost energy and speed in tight turns.

But, if you were to allow planes to gain altitude in a dogfight, the lower the number for "Climb Rate" the better the performance in climbing.

Link -> Ares Games - Downloads - WGF Climb Rates & Max Altitude Table

Anything with a "2" has the ability to gain one altitude for every two climb maneuvers. Gaining 2 levels of altitude in one maneuver would be four times the capability of the best planes?

PS: The Fokker Dr.1 was designed to climb faster, both by wing design and by the pitch of the propeller. Which is why it is slower in overall speed. It was maximized for climb. This had to do, IIRC, because most times the Entente planes were coming over the German lines hunting for targets, and the Germans wanted to climb to meet them, or get above them. Again, not to out-climb opponents in a dogfight. Although, if the opportunity to waste energy in a climb to gain a height advantage presented itself, I'm sure it was done.

Thank you Dave, great DR1 Into I haven’t heard before. Helps greatly on moving my group forward

[OldGuy59]

Perhaps too detailed for Wings of Glory, being that we use maneuver decks rather that actual engines and aerodynamic forces, but interesting:

Link -> Aces High - Energy Management

PS: Kinetic energy = speed. Potential energy = alt(itude).