Custom Model: Zeppelin Carrier

[AceXT]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and I hope it's appropriate to post these images here. If not, my apologies!

I recently got into Wings of Glory because I was looking for WW1 plane minis for a RPG campaign I'm running. The concept is basically "Battlestar Galactica with Zeppelins", that is: WW1 aces based on an airship carrier fight pulp scifi robots. Once I had acquired a plane for each of the players, I thought it might be fun to build the carrier. The scale is obviously a problem, so for practical reasons I ended up with a 3D printed P-class Zeppelin at about 1/300 (55cm). Add a landing deck cut from plasticard and some 3D printed carrier and battleship bits and that's it. It is very much out of scale with the planes, but I figure it works well enough as a game piece. Hope you enjoy these images:









Photoshopped background for dramatic effect:

[Guntruck]

Impressive.

Hi Christian, welcome to the forum from England.

[CrashCraig]

Well done and welcome from Maryland USA

[Flying Helmut]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and I hope it's appropriate to post these images here. If not, my apologies!

Hi Christian, Welcome to the 'Drome!

We're always happy to see the innovations other chaps come up with - your Zeppelin looks great!

[RJG173]

Something like this?

[AceXT]

Thanks everyone!

Something like this?

Yeah, this is great. I came across that image when googling for inspiration, and I adore the airship romanticism of the 20s and early 30s.

This one (supposedly from a German newspaper, 1925) is even closer to what I ended up building:

[OldGuy59]

Christian! Awesome entrance post to the Forum. Welcome from Vancouver Island, Canada.

I've played a few games with a 1/214 scale Zeppelin, and they've been fun, if not very successful for the Zeppelin...

GottaCon 2015 - 27 Feb - 2 Mar 2015 - Zeppelin getting Shot Down...

There was an actual attempt at an airship carrier (Wikipedia - USS Akron (ZRS-4)), but it never worked out. Too bad.

Then, all the fictional ones, including Captain Scarlet's Cloudbase, which is where I first remember seeing anything like this idea...

I really like the concept and look forward to some After-Action Reports (AARs) on the use of this.

[malachi]

Very cool, Christian, and welcome to the 'drome! Thanks for sharing that

[AceXT]

Christian! Awesome entrance post to the Forum. Welcome from Vancouver Island, Canada.

I've played a few games with a 1/214 scale Zeppelin, and they've been fun, if not very successful for the Zeppelin...

Thanks, Mike! Your Zeppelin model looks very impressive. May I ask what rules you used?

As for the AARs, I'm afraid you'll have to be patient. I need to get in some actual games of WoG first, and in the meantime, the Zeppelin carrier will serve as a RPG scenery piece (albeit an awesome one).

[camelbeagle]

That is really awesome!

[Rebel]

Welcome to the 'Drome' Christian from here in the UK in a very sad week! I like your concept, very entertaining!

[Stumptonian]

Welcome from Oregon, Christian.
Nice looking zeppelin carrier.

[Baxter]

I used to imagine huge airships were the answer to Australian deserts and vast open spaces. Back before I understood the weather effects on them. They look magnificent though, well done with yours.

[OldGuy59]

Thanks, Mike! Your Zeppelin model looks very impressive. May I ask what rules you used?

As for the AARs, I'm afraid you'll have to be patient. I need to get in some actual games of WoG first, and in the meantime, the Zeppelin carrier will serve as a RPG scenery piece (albeit an awesome one).

The rules are not anywhere to which I can easily direct you. I have hard copies of rules that David [clipper1801] sent me with the Zeppelin model.

NOTE: Some images are missing due to the "Great Hacking" of our Forum in 2012. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Try these links?

Original Airship Build Thread(?): Building Dirigibles (Airships) from Scratch - Building the R-34 and the L-11 (Post #57 showing the model, the Damage Card and the Crew Management Card)

Damage Card Link: Early Doors Mission 5 - The Bigger They Come May 3rd, 1916 (Entente-Archidamus) Shows the Damage Management Card, different than mine as it has engines on it.

Tokens for Fire Damage: Forum Downloads - WWI - Game Aides - Zeppelin Gas Cell Tokens

Management Card for Zeppelins: Dear Santa, what I want for Christmas is.... (First Management Card is at Post #14)

Tokens for Crew Management: Forum Downloads - WWI - Game Aides - FOTG Crew / Engine / Wound Tokens

House Rules for Zeppelin Movement: Forum Downloads - WWI - House Rules - Zeppelin Movement Template B&W

Base Template for LZ-41: OldGuy59's WWI Central Powers Bombers Album - LZ-41 Firing Arc Base Card (I created this base to show firing arcs for the different MG positions on my Zeppelin. Some people just use a ruler distance from the Zeppelin as the danger zone. I like to be able to assign shots from specific MGs. You can print this to scale for your model, if you want to use it, as it won't need to match Dave's [clipper1801] model.

Wow. The things you find when you dig through this Forum...

Link > Fighting Zeppelins - A Comprehensive Set of Rules Needed

Link > Airship Attack! — Presenting the LZ41 (L-11)

Link > Forum Downloads - WWI - Game Aides - L45 Rules

Link > Forum Downloads - WWI - Game Aides - Zeppelin L11 Control Board

[AceXT]

Mike, that is much more than I expected, thank you for digging through the forums!

On a general note, I'm truly delighted by everyone's responses. What a lovely and welcoming community you have here.

[zenlizard]

Whimsical and imaginative! Excellent!

[tonyc206]

Barking mad and yet brilliant! Excellent model!

[OldGuy59]

Draft Firing Arc base for the Zeppelin Carrier:



Front 'green' arc for the triple turret (Damage C, four rulers range, using AA Gun rules. Separate shots/reloads for each barrel.) The 'purple' and 'blue' arcs are for the superstructure gun mounts. Perhaps Quad-A damage guns? Range up to two rulers?

Red arcs are the gondola MGs and the tail MG position. All are B Damage MGs.

PS: A good top-down image would allow more accurate placement of the arcs.

[camel crew]

That is one cool piece of work. oh, and welcome to the Drome

[AceXT]

Draft Firing Arc base for the Zeppelin Carrier:

(...)

PS: A good top-down image would allow more accurate placement of the arcs.

Oh wow, thank you for doing the work!

There's another triple turret below the belly - it's obscured by the Nieuport on the last image. That said, it's likely that the armament I built won't make sense or be fun in WoG. I mean, the entire thing is only held together by rule of cool.

Here's a top view:

[OldGuy59]

Because the MG mounts on the superstructure are off-center, I widened the base. I didn't add in the bottom-center turret, as that would be too nasty? You can always play it, regardless of the lack of represented arcs. That would be up to the scenario, I suppose.

If this works for you, I can place it in the Files section as a PDF for better resolution.



[Edit: Added triple-MG position on top of front Turret, and marked arcs for Damage Decks. Also added in the Damage Decks for the Superstructure quad MG mounts. This now matches the Crew Management card below.]

[AceXT]

Sure, that would be great! We can always say the belly turret is geared towards ground bombardment.

[Hedeby]

That’s really cool, bit like the Dystopian Wars Prussian Airship Carrier. (only bigger, much bigger)

[Jager]

A seriously cool Zeppelin! Something Clipper might have made (which is a high complement around here).
Certainly better than what they brought out for a first-series Spiderman cartoon:


Karl

[AceXT]

I'm loving the other airship carrier images! Feeling pretty good about my take.

[OldGuy59]

What would Crew Management look like?



Turret Crew: #? 6?

Quad MG Crews: #? 4?

Flight Deck Crew: #? Depending on planes? Launch and Recovery, Maintenance, Flight Prep...

Flight Operations: #? Commander, Operations Officer, Comms(? No radios...), Signalers

And standard Zeppelin Crew, with five MG Gunners for the Gondolas and the tail. Lots of crew...

[OldGuy59]

Quick Cut&Paste of Standard Zeppelin Crew Management Card:

[milcoll73]

welcome to the drome Christian! thats so very steampunk!

[AceXT]

What would Crew Management look like?

I have no idea how the WoG rules for huge planes work, so I'll just nod and be grateful.

[OldGuy59]

I have no idea how the WoG rules for huge planes work, so I'll just nod and be grateful.

The reason for Crew Management cards is that crew wounds affect the aircraft, and the functions it can perform. For a large bomber, there could be more than one pilot, so double-wounding one doesn't cause the plane to crash. Also, if the aircraft is big enough, or there are corridors/passages available, gunners could change position. This is why two-seater planes don't usually need a crew management card, as it is easy to track just two positions, and there are limited (non-existant?) possibilities for changing positions and roles. If the observer of a two-seater is wounded, the rear firing arc isn't used any more. If the pilot is double-wounded, the plane is out of the game. Simple.

For a Zeppelin, there is lots of opportunity to move crew around. However, some crew have functions that can't be done by all crew. We even have Ace Skill cards, now, for 'Emergency' pilots and gunners, to allow crew to do 'non-trained' functions, and keep the aircraft in the fight. But, we can assign positions on the Zeppelin-Carrier as we decide, because it isn't historical.

To fire the front turret, and handle the reloading, it needs more than one gunner. These would be 'artillery' crew, and not trained to handle MGs. If they were all wounded, the turret would be out. Rate of fire (reloading), and/or number of guns firing, would be affected by crew losses.

Quad MG crews could be interchanged with any MG crew, I would think. Again, loss of crew would affect rate of reload.

Flight Deck crew would need rules made from scratch, and effects of wounding determined. Or not? We could leave the Flight Deck crew out completely, and just assume the planes do their own thing as required.

All the other Zeppelin crew have rules already produced, so they would work as written. There are several pilots to fly the ship, and several engineers to take care of engine repair and firefighting.

[Hedeby]

What he said, lol

[OldGuy59]

If you don't have the Wings of Glory Rules and Accessories Pack, or even if you do, this might be helpful for planes with lots of crew and different roles:

www.fantasyflightgames.com Downloads - Wings of War - Flight of the Giants Rules.pdf

This was the basis for the Zeppelin crew rules, I suspect. Note the Zeppelin-Stakken R.VI 'Engine Mechanic/Gunner' rules. This is important for the Zeppelin. The Mechanic's role was also expanded to include firefighting.

[OldGuy59]

Good thing I didn't try to put Flight Deck Crew on this:



[Edit: Added the triple-MG mount on the front turret Firing Arc card above, so amended this card to fit. Added the number '5' to the MG crew icon, as well.]

Or the bottom Turret!

PS: Oops! The 5,6,7 MG positions are for the top of a standard Zeppelin, and not for the Carrier version. However, there may need to be some top-forward MGs nonetheless. Perhaps on top of the forward turret, or just below the forward edge of the flight deck? Needs some thought, and more firing arcs, if we keep them.

[Teaticket]

Wow, just saw this! Welcome to the aerodrome Christian. A very interesting piece you have here. Looking forward to seeing it in use.

[OldGuy59]

Putting thought into the Carrier Zeppelin, and the guns. I just had a flash-back to the Forssman-Mannesmann Triplane (Link: Forssman-Mannesmann Triplane).

Using a monster aircraft, I came up with a 'moving-map' rig, and the 'target' was stationary in the middle of the table, with the surface of the table moving opposite the direction of travel for the target. This works if the target never turns. The first trial of that concept was done here: Slay the Leviathan - Solo Trial- Post #14. I have linked to Post #14 as that was the discussion about the cannons on the front of the plane. Other than A-A cannons, there could be 37mm auto-cannons on the front.

However; if we go with artillery, and use the existing rules for A-A cannons, the Carrier Zeppelin has a three-gun turret. If it fires all the guns at a single target, how would that work? First thought is three "C" Damage cards, if they hit. Or, one barrel could be fired per phase, and this would mean continuous fire, every turn. Would Aim Bonus apply? Perhaps. If using Altitude rules, the turret could bracket a plane by altering the elevation of the three barrels slightly, and hit the same spot on the play mat, but at three different altitudes. This would require a complete reload of all barrels, so three phases out of action.

If using Altitude Rules, the turret does have some depression. At some distance away, that depression would allow the turret to target planes below the Zeppelin. And if using A-A cannons (not the 37mm auto-cannons) with a range of four rulers, attacking planes could be a few altitude levels lower than the Carrier and still be viable targets.

Using the top of the turret for the forward MG position, this would make the firing arcs a challenge. Technically, the three guns would change arcs as the turret pivoted about. However, within any firing phase, there would be three guns able to fire at something. There would be a restriction due to the Flight Deck behind the turret, but that can be worked out. I'll see how that looks on the Firing Arc Base card, and fix that.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

PS: Better shots of the Moving Map, and the Forssman-Mannesmann Triplane Plane and Crew Management Cards: SND - International Skype Game - Slay the Leviathan 8-9 June 2013

[OldGuy59]

Amendments to the Firing Arc card for the triple-MG mount on the front turret (separate B Damage guns), and put the Damage Deck type on the individual arcs. Made some small adjustments to the Crew Management card to better reflect the location of the MG crew for the turret mount. Added the missing '5' on the Crew Icon.

Hope this helps?

Note: The turret MGs will rotate with the turret, so it is possible that either the purple or the blue arcs could be blocked by the Flight Deck in some positions. You'll have to fudge this.

[AceXT]

Mike, thank you for the tremendous work you keep putting into this project. I've only played WoG in the app so far, which is why I don't feel qualified to comment on your rules suggestions. I've downloaded the giant airplanes rules, though (thanks for the link), and I'm getting a better sense of the mechanisms at play.

On the idea of the moving map, I've played "rolling road" scenarios in Gorkamorka. These model a car chase: the target vehicle is moved forward a fixed distance per turn until it leaves the map, while the pursuers and terrain are moved back a fixed distance. Pursuers that leave the map are out of the game, and terrain re-enters the game from the front. The same principle could be applied to WoG, provided that (as you say) the target will only move in a straight line.

I've also been thinking about bringing the carrier aspect into play, by launching and recovering planes. My initial ideas are fairly simple and game-y: the carrier team could launch a new plane each turn or couple of turns, as reinforcement waves. And if you land a plane on the carrier, using existing rules for landing, you could clear damage and relaunch, or count as having retreated from your home map edge. If you want more detail, planes might have to spend a round on deck and be vulnerable to attack as well. Does any of that sound like a decent idea?

[OldGuy59]

My over-thought design for a moving map:

The meter-wide table:


The clamps. I put eye-hole fasteners through the clamp handles to hold a dowel. The paper was bought in rolls and put over the dowels and the dowels held by the clamps:


I taped (using painters tape, or low tack tape) the lead edge of the paper rolls to the 'rear' dowel, and pulled the paper by turning the dowel a measured amount each phase to emulate the bomber moving forward. Planes on the paper would be pulled along, representing the relative movement of the bomber.

I made a two-level stand out of 1/4" masonite board, so that the plane didn't restrict the movement of the paper:

Note: when planes flew directly under/over the bomber stand, fudging had to occur.

From the Skype game, with a 'map' drawn on the paper. If you look closely at the inner edges of the paper rolls, you will see red marks/lines spaced at intervals. These are XA Maneuver Straight and Stall distances:

Depending on what I picked for maneuvers, I'd pull the map back to the next appropriate mark. I marked both rolls with lines, so this had the added feature of ensuring both paper rolls moved the same amount.

Not shown in any images was the use of foam pipe insulation on the dowels, between the two paper rolls at the forward edge (keeping the paper a set distance apart), and between the paper rolls and the eye-holes. The pipe insulation was used to space things, but more importantly kept tension on the rolls, so they didn't unravel or unroll on their own.

[Biggles downunder]

Wow Mike that is an ingenious solution!!

[OldGuy59]

I'm still overthinking this Forward MG position. I needed to see the firing arcs, as the turret turned...

Forward middle position of the turret, and the MG arcs:


Farthest left position of the turret, and the blocking of the left MG arc by the Flight Deck:

Note: The purple arc is covered by the Flight Deck, but the position of the MG is actually near the center blue dot. The left MG could fire backwards over the turret at targets to the right of the Zeppelin. There would still be three arcs of fire for the MGs.

Farthest right position of the turret, and the blocking of the right MG arc by the Flight Deck:

Note: The blue arc is covered by the Flight Deck, but the position of the MG is actually near the center blue dot. The right MG could fire backwards over the turret at targets to the left of the Zeppelin. There would still be three arcs of fire for the MGs.

And this all goes away, if the MG position is 'fixed' or separately rotated from the turret, allowing the position to stay in a relative forward-pointing position regardless of the turning of the turret.

And that keeps all the arcs where they are on the base card, and we don't have to fudge anything!

Did I overthink this or what?

Simple is best.

[OldGuy59]

Something else you need, to manage the damage to the Zeppelin:


Note: This is generic for Zeppelins, not specific to your carrier version. I could amend this, if you need something different.

[AceXT]

Thank you! The generic version will be perfectly fine.

As for the MG arc question, I hadn't even thought of it, to be honest. Maybe the position atop the turret is just an observation post? And not to give you more problems, but a copy of the same gun turret is mounted below the belly. Would that mean that there's another MG position, with the gunners strapped in upside down?