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Thread: Why don't we "cross" our S's?

  1. #1

    Default Why don't we "cross" our S's?

    We use a "crook/base" to distinguish 1's from l's,
    we cross 7's to distinguish them from 1's,
    we cross z's to distinguish them from 2's,
    and we cross 0's to distinguish them from O's...

    ...so why don't we use some kind of mark to distinguish S's from 5's? Or do we...?

    All I'm saying is that it would be helpful. I'm stuyding for a math exam, and I'm trying to get into the habit of writing S's kind of like the "section symbol," found in legal documents: §. Is there a better way?!

  2. #2

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    I thought a cross on a "7" was only used in Europe? I can't find any code or symbol for what I refer to as a European "7" to display it on this editor.

    I can find ascii code for, and can paste the slashed "0" into the editor: Ø
    Note: this is used in a few languages, besides being used as a symbol for Phase in electrical notation, and has other uses in mathematical systems.

    "5" should be distinct on its own, because it is usually drawn with a flat top, where "S" is usually rounded. Much like the "1" has a single angled serif on the top left (much more accentuated in Europe), and the letter "I" is either drawn with no serif, or given top and bottom horizontal finishing lines (double serifs).

    PS: Fonts on computer screens are bad for shortcutting symbols and letters, reusing the same character for multiple things. San-serif fonts like Arial are bad for this. That is just lazy font design.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

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    When I was a Technical Drawing student we were banned from using the crossed 7 as it could be easily confused with a 4 on working drawings and blueprints. Each system has its own merits and shortcomings I guess. With my poor eyesight Arial was advised for me as it was very clear, but even that can be difficult to make out the I,i and 1 for me> Also B/8, E/F, G/H, M/N, RB and 8/9/6.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I thought a cross on a "7" was only used in Europe? I can't find any code or symbol for what I refer to as a European "7" to display it on this editor.

    I can find ascii code for, and can paste the slashed "0" into the editor: Ø
    Note: this is used in a few languages, besides being used as a symbol for Phase in electrical notation, and has other uses in mathematical systems.

    "5" should be distinct on its own, because it is usually drawn with a flat top, where "S" is usually rounded. Much like the "1" has a single angled serif on the top left (much more accentuated in Europe), and the letter "I" is either drawn with no serif, or given top and bottom horizontal finishing lines (double serifs).

    PS: Fonts on computer screens are bad for shortcutting symbols and letters, reusing the same character for multiple things. San-serif fonts like Arial are bad for this. That is just lazy font design.
    Don't forget noting "diameter" in drafting and engineering.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (missing only T&T Starter Nieuport) | WWII (complete)

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    When I was a Technical Drawing student we were banned from using the crossed 7 as it could be easily confused with a 4 on working drawings and blueprints. Each system has its own merits and shortcomings I guess. With my poor eyesight Arial was advised for me as it was very clear, but even that can be difficult to make out the I,i and 1 for me> Also B/8, E/F, G/H, M/N, RB and 8/9/6.
    Rob.
    You interested me, Rob, so I checked Czech technical drawing fonts and both ways of "7" are possible here.
    Also interesting point from Mike that the reason is in geography. I had a colleague from Kazakhstan and he writes 1 with straight horizontal line on the bottom of the number. Our buddies from machinery hall were confused and thought he writes "2".

  6. #6

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    Ever since I lived in Germany (1979-86) I've used "European" 1's and 7's when I write by hand

  7. #7

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    When i ship stuff to america, i always use their font.

  8. #8

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    Luke when you write 5, start with the vertical line, then the horizontal one will be straight.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Luke when you write 5, start with the vertical line, then the horizontal one will be straight.
    Thanks for the advice, but I have to write them quickly, so I don't know if I can abide by that!

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Luke when you write 5, start with the vertical line, then the horizontal one will be straight.
    Hmm that's the way I learned in school. Never occured to me that this makes 5 look different from S. Not everything we learned in school is useless
    Last edited by hokusai; 08-20-2022 at 08:16.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    Thanks for the advice, but I have to write them quickly, so I don't know if I can abide by that!
    Hold my beer, ….
    You start at the point where the vertical and horizontal line meet. You go down, make the belly, then you carry on in a circle and draw the horizontal line.
    If you draw it by one line starting from the top right end, i bet you i will draw it faster

  12. #12

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    Hmm....interesting...

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    Hmm....interesting...
    probably not, but the difference will be in tens of ns.

  14. #14

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    Well, I passed my test, and, for the fourth time in my educational career, I am under the impression that I will never need to earn another math credential.

    I took this test to get admitted into a history PhD program—I kid you not!

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Moth View Post
    Well, I passed my test, and, for the fourth time in my educational career, I am under the impression that I will never need to earn another math credential.

    I took this test to get admitted into a history PhD program—I kid you not!
    WTF?! I became a History major to get AWAY from that crap!
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (missing only T&T Starter Nieuport) | WWII (complete)

  16. #16

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    Haha! It was the Graduate Record Examination (GRE).

  17. #17

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    Man, it took three tries to beats Stats and two Calculus through my skull and you mean to tell me my personal Hell is only BEGINNING?!
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (missing only T&T Starter Nieuport) | WWII (complete)

  18. #18

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    Well, not all graduate schools require GRE scores.

    But, if your preferred university requires GRE scores, then, if I were you, I would take a practice test on ets.org. If the practice test doesn't crush your spirits, then get a "GRE-prep" book (I would recommend Kaplan's), take the book's "diagnostic test" to assess your strengths and weaknesses, and then follow the study program that it recommends. Then, take another practice test to determine where you stand, and then do one of the three...

    1. Take the real test
    2. Revisit practicing
    3. Give up

  19. #19

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    Ugh, so far the only two with WWII Studies programs I've been able to find are American Military and Norwich... not sure what PhD that MA lends itself to. Good Hunting with your program!

    I had to deal with an Ed.D. who thought she was Queen Crap in high school, and completing a Ph.D. of some kind is one last act of spite toward Frau Doktor.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (missing only T&T Starter Nieuport) | WWII (complete)

  20. #20

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    Thank you!

    An M.A. in U.S. History could accomplish a lot of your goals. Traditionally, the purpose of a History M.A. is to equip one with the skills of a historian, i.e.: researching, synthesizing sources, etc; not to expand their knowledge of history.

    In core courses, i.e.: Research Seminar, Historical Methodology, Digital and Public History, etc—and thematic courses, i.e.: U.S. Foreign Relations, America in the 20th Century, etc—most professors should let you choose a WWII topic for your important papers. Because topics that you are interested in will cause you to produce your best work and learn the most.

    Write a thesis on a WWII topic and get it published in an academic journal. That will do you the most favors if you want to be recognized as a WWII authority.
    Last edited by Killer Moth; 09-20-2022 at 13:10.

  21. #21

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    Re the original post. From the early computer days I remember that B and 8 seemed to be the most confusing.



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