Need stats for my paper Bloch MB200

[hokusai]

This is a model by Kampfflieger, purchased on Wargamevault. Apart from the struggle with its gun turrets it was an easy build. The box-with-wings style design of those french bombers was optimized for low production & maintenance costs. They certainly had no ambition to win at a concours d'elegance.
Somehow I like its cute ugliness, though.

It saw only minor action in WW2, but who cares... will run what-if fantasy scenarios.









Any ideas for stats?

Wikipedia lists a crew of 4, however, in photos often 6 members are seen.
In game terms, how about
I: pilot
II: bombardier = front gunner
III: dorsal gunner = ventral gunner
or
III: dorsal gunner
IV: copilot?/radio operator? = ventral gunner

Thanks for any advice

[Teaticket]

Very nice Fabrizio! My guess as it is close to an Amoit 143 in speed it would use Q(Z)b movement. 23 hit points? 3 x A guns, 1 for each position.

Karl will be the man for this.

[Jager]

I'll look into it Sunday, along with some floatplanes
Karl

[Teaticket]

I'll look into it Sunday, along with some floatplanes
Karl

Thanks Karl.

[Jager]

Thanks Karl.

We live to serve.

[Jager]

Bloch MB200: Deck: H(zb)(8); Guns: Nose gun: A/A 10:00 to 2:00; Dorsal gun: A/A 360, level to high,
with front and rear blindspots (tail and engines; the front one might be more, check a vertical view); Vental gun: A/A 4:00 to 8:00 low only.
Damage: 20 (I assume no armor or self-sealing tanks, so HR1,2,3 can be used).
Ceiling: 9; Climb: 8

Karl

[Teaticket]

Well, that tells me not to look at stats and try to figure out planes on my own!

[OldGuy59]

Crew listed as four, but that might be just the flight crew, not a combat crew.

I found a cut-away drawing showing the following: seat for bombardier/navigator; seat for co-pilot; seat for pilot; seat for radio operator; front turret, rear turret, ventral turret. The particular drawing I found showed dual Lewis machine gun mountings in each of the turrets.

So, depending on how the crew tasks are distributed, the nose turret could be operated by the bombardier/navigator, the radio operator could operate the ventral turret, and the co-pilot could operate the rear dorsal turret. However, if bombing while defending is desired, there would need to be another crew member, and perhaps yet another gunner if you wanted to keep the plane flying (co-pilot stays in his seat)? Six could have been the combat crew.

PS: Units? "The aircraft entered service late in 1934 and by May 1935 some 38 aircraft were operational with the Groupes de Bombardement I/12 and II/12 based at Reims and with GB II/22 based at Chartres."

PPS: Link: Warthunder.com - la famille MB200 History and units? (In French, something I can almost read)

[Dan-Sam]

At least Czechoslovak Air Force used them with crew of 4 - sharing seats exactly you described, Mike
Maybe there was a different doctrine in Armée de l'Air, so do not take it as a rule.

[hokusai]

Thanks for the stats Karl and all your answers, guys.

I assume no armor or self-sealing tanks, so HR1,2,3 can be used.

I've read in a french article that about half of the Czech-produced MB200 did have self-sealing tanks. May apply for the french ones, as well(?)
It also states that the Czech-produced airplanes had a crew of 5.

Well..my approach is 'where in doubt take the simplest solution'. I will do the mgmt card with 4 roles: pilot, front gunner, dorsal gunner, ventral gunner. No switching positions.
A rule that prevents the bombardier to shoot and bomb simultaneously could also be applicable for other bombers but since the official rules do not consider the bombardier role I will keep it simple.

The particular drawing I found showed dual Lewis machine gun mountings in each of the turrets.

Some photos show Lewis guns, I found no explanation. Seems that Mac or Lewis was used (or Lewis replaced Mac?). Anyway, in game terms it makes no difference.
And btw. I have also found a photo with a 20mm HS9 in the dorsal turret, probably some experimental configuration.

[Dan-Sam]

...
I've read in a french article that about half of the Czech-produced MB200 did have self-sealing tanks. May apply for the french ones, as well(?)
It also states that the Czech-produced airplanes had a crew of 5.
...

Well, you're right with the crew. I dig into literature and there was a mention about 5 or even 6 crew members (depends on a mission). Sorry for wrong information, I would use just serious resources next time

About special improvings - there were a lot of them, but most from French side initiative. I can imagine many of them were applicable even for thsy own bombers or were used for MB. 210, but it is just my guess.

[hokusai]

with front and rear blindspots (tail and engines; the front one might be more, check a vertical view);
Karl

Is my front blind spot about what you mean, Karl?



Thankfully I could grab the airplane from Max Headroom's card

[Jager]

Is my front blind spot about what you mean, Karl?



Thankfully I could grab the airplane from Max Headroom's card

Yes, that grey arc would be the dorsal turret's front BS. I would make it a bit more, but I know other card makers like to have the arc lines right up to the obstruction.
Remember that if the target is higher, the dorsal turret is an unobstructed 360.
Karl

[OldGuy59]

Not good, but the best I could find for a line drawing:



Also, this:



The top-down view is an estimate of the level arc, using the port-view as a reference. The wingtip is on a level with the top of the dorsal turret, but below the height of the cockpit. It would be possible to put bullets into the wing, if shooting on level. So, the arc for the dorsal turret is really bad, on level. Still 360 above, though.

[Jager]

Yeh, the 210 really improves things by being a low-winged bomber.
Maybe simplify it by making it 90 degrees to the tail BS on either side?
Karl

[OldGuy59]

I'm thinking of arcs like this card:


Perhaps the front arc at 3:30 to 9:30, rather than around the front as shown, and a gap at the tail.

[hokusai]

Actually there are two ways of representing a blind spot. With a black area it applies only for short distance, whereas a regular arc limits for short + long. Seems somewhat arbitrary which one is used for the official planes. Or maybe the logic is: if the only obstacle is a single fin, do the black area, otherwise do the arc (?)

In this case the B25 solution looks definitely more appropriate.
Here is my amended version.

[OldGuy59]

Actually there are two ways of representing a blind spot. With a black area it applies only for short distance, whereas a regular arc limits for short + long. Seems somewhat arbitrary which one is used for the official planes. Or maybe the logic is: if the only obstacle is a single fin, do the black area, otherwise do the arc (?)

In this case the B25 solution looks definitely more appropriate.
Here is my amended version.

That's where I would have gone. Bravo.

[Jager]

Actually there are two ways of representing a blind spot. With a black area it applies only for short distance, whereas a regular arc limits for short + long. Seems somewhat arbitrary which one is used for the official planes. Or maybe the logic is: if the only obstacle is a single fin, do the black area, otherwise do the arc (?)

In this case the B25 solution looks definitely more appropriate.
Here is my amended version.

I would point out that official planes with single fins have the full blind spots for the tail
The He.111:


And the Ju.87 (one of Max's cards, but he would have used the official as a template):


So I would heed the designers idea, and use a full arc blindspot.
Karl

[hokusai]

I would point out that official planes with single fins have the full blind spots for the tail

And the Ju.87 (one of Max's cards, but he would have used the official as a template):

So I would heed the designers idea, and use a full arc blindspot.

However, the dorsal gun bs of B17 is an example of narrow black section around a single fin.

Interpreting the He 111 card I would argue that dorsal gun 2 has no tail blind spot at all (?) or does the rules booklet specify anything special?

As for the Ju 87, the official rules for two-seaters apply (p.24) : complete rear edge is bs (only short distance)

And btw. there is an inconsistency between the dorsal turrets of the B25 (complete tail) and Lancaster (single black section around each fin)

Well... nothing is perfect