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Thread: Another Alternative Altitude Rules

  1. #1

    Default Another Alternative Altitude Rules

    Hello friends,

    we put together our house rule for Altitude. We played a few test games with them and we like it so I am presenting it to you. I would like to ask you for your opinions and sugestions. Thank you.

    One premises was
    - use just what the game (WW1 Rules and Accessories Pack) offers in terms of chits, tokens and cards. So no need to fabricate anything you do no probably already have.
    - not to bog down the flow of a game as much as posible

    Edit:

    Rules version 1.01 with changes and corrections based on a comments from this thread until 06.20.2021:

    Alternative Altitude Rules Unofficial-EN - v1.01.pdf
    Last edited by bigpetr; 06-20-2021 at 05:57.

  2. #2

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    Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I will have to try these and see how they work out.

  3. #3

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    This looks good Petr, though you should spell check it.
    I like the way you've handled the climbing movement mechanic, that could work very well.
    It might be worth considering extension to the diving movement to demonstrate increase in speeds. Can we take it there are no movement restrictions for diving ? The diagrams are very useful.
    Last edited by flash; 06-18-2021 at 07:48.

    "He is wise who watches"

  4. #4

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    Another version for proof-reading:
    Attachment 303147

    I hope I didn't mess this up too badly. Suggestions and critiques are appreciated.

    Apologies to Petr if I changed any of the intent. I'll fix that, if I did.

    Awesome work on the rules and the presentation!
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

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    Ii needs spell check for sure. I need to ask someone to correct it. Or if some of you, native speakers, could correct the mistakes it would be great .

    Thank you OldGuy59. I can not open your attachement.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpetr View Post
    Ii needs spell check for sure. I need to ask someone to correct it. Or if some of you, native speakers, could correct the mistakes it would be great .

    Thank you OldGuy59. I can not open your attachement.
    Just attempted a download from my end, and it works with Adobe Reader on my phone. I can attempt a fix when I get back to my workstation tonight, if nobody else can open it.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    This looks good Petr, though you should spell check it.
    Can we take it there are no movement restrictions for diving ?
    Diving is the same as in official rules + few 3 card dive maneuvers. We need to play couple more games to see if we get the urge to change it to something else.

    I forgot to thank to all of you who presented altitude house rules here on the forum. I tried them, borrowed from them and destiled them to our house rules. Maneuvers are also not my creation, they are basicly colected from the forum. I will mention the autors that inspired this rules in final version.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Just attempted a download from my end, and it works with Adobe Reader on my phone. I can attempt a fix when I get back to my workstation tonight, if nobody else can open it.
    For info only, can’t open on iPad either

    Baz

  9. #9

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    Another attempt to post a pdf file:

    Alternative Altitude Rules Unofficial-EN_V2.pdf
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10


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    Interesting approach and as a plus comes even without additional components.

    What does the +3 counter on the middle card of the half-loop mean? climb 3 counters at a time?

    Some doubts about the loop. A two card sequence to revert the plane back and forth looks too powerful. Somewhere in the forum I have seen: straight-reverse-stall-reverse-straight
    Did you consider this proposal?

  11. #11

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    I really like some of the maneuvers included in the document!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    ...Some doubts about the loop. A two card sequence to revert the plane back and forth looks too powerful..
    Not really, the Immelmann turn is a single card, the rules just require you to play a straight before and after it, or, something else after it if you have a particular ace skill.
    This loop was designed as a three card manoeuvre to be in keeping with the game mechanic, the third card can be anything so is probably why it's not shown.
    If you want to see a demo of what it was trying to achieve then watch Mikael Carlson on Youtube. He does a loop at 8 mins and a double loop at 10.40 mins that demonstrate the speed of it quite nicely - he also links it with other moves like the Split S - and he's flying a Fokker D.VII.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZZ82xiWP7w&t=905s
    You should also see what he can do in a Dr.1
    https://youtu.be/yMBZgmiYIiY
    I used it in a solo game recently, it didn't help but sometimes desperate measures are required !
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...ainst-The-Odds
    Last edited by flash; 06-20-2021 at 01:04. Reason: typo

    "He is wise who watches"

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    What does the +3 counter on the middle card of the half-loop mean?
    I was wondering the same thing.

    Also wondering if any consideration had been given to adding cards to the Dive beyond the Overdive and Powerdive, such as diving turns.
    And what is the stall card shown after the dive for? Or was it meant to be in the previous entry as the last of the climb sequence?

    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #14

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    +3 counters means +3 climb counters. I corrected it in the description above the card. Thanks for noticing.

    Stall card was meant to be in the previouse entry. I included it there for space reasons, because I want to have the rules on one page. I will try to rearange it so it is not so confusing.

    There was, and still are, consideration about diving turns and dive speed gains, but so far we did not liked any of them that much to complicate things even more with it. We are still trying and If we find something we like I will surely present it to you. With all this house rules we are still trying to maintant game speed and flow at the end. Our house rules usualy starts by adding as much realism as possible, but if we feel it drags the game down during the test plays we gradualy simlify and sometimes we end with official rule again. This is the case with dive for now. But as I said we are still trying new thoughts

    Thank you Dave for coments on loop. I borrowed it from your maneuver list, so no one else could give better explanation. My thought was that five card loop is useless for getting behind the tailing plane. And I do not see any other reason to include loop if it could not do that.

    Thank you very much Mike for grammar and spelling corections. Much appreciated.

  15. #15

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    Thanks for the clarifications, Petr.

    I am watching this thread with great interest.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Not really, the Immelmann turn is a single card, the rules just require you to play a straight before and after it, of something else after it if you have a particular ace skill.
    This loop was designed as a three card manoeuvre to be in keeping with the game mechanic, the third card can be anything so is probably why it's not shown.
    If you want to see a demo of what it was trying to achieve then watch Mikael Carlson on Youtube. He does a loop at 8 mins and a double loop at 10.40 mins that demonstrate the speed of it quite nicely - he also links it with other moves like the Split S - and he's flying a Fokker D.VII.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZZ82xiWP7w&t=905s
    You should also see what he can do in a Dr.1
    https://youtu.be/yMBZgmiYIiY
    I used it in a solo game recently, it didn't help but sometimes desperate measures are required !
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...ainst-The-Odds
    So, within the mechanics of Wings of War/Glory, the time scale is 2 seconds per phase/card. People tend to think that a maneuver in the game is one card, but Andrea, the Designer, actually looked at many different games, and created the card system to emulate a complete maneuver in a single turn (not a phase!). So, an Immelmann turn is completed in a "single turn". This was in keeping with Richthofen's War and other games. With the phase break-down, a player actually gets to shoot more often (three times in a turn) to compensate for the rigidity in the card movement system. Many times in games like Richthofen's War, you'd start a maneuver out of firing arc, and end it out of arc, having had a target in sight through out the hexes you maneuvered through during the movement phase of the turn.

    So, if you use the above example of a loop being performed in 8 minutes, a three card maneuver wouldn't come close to representing the Real Life time it would take to actually perform it. People loose track of this time stretching in games where they want instantaneous reaction. Dogfights weren't quite that fast.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    ... So, if you use the above example of a loop being performed in 8 minutes, a three card maneuver wouldn't come close to representing the Real Life time it would take to actually perform it. ...
    Mike: Dave was pointing out that the Loop was performed at the 8 minute mark, not that it takes 8 minutes. In the video linked it takes about 6 seconds which fits perfectly with the 2-seconds per phase.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpetr View Post
    ..Thank you Dave for comments on loop. I borrowed it from your maneuver list, so no one else could give better explanation. My thought was that five card loop is useless for getting behind the tailing plane. And I do not see any other reason to include loop if it could not do that...
    I quite agree Petr. Based on what I've seen, it's the closest it could get within the tolerances already mentioned; not fixing the last card allows the pilot a free choice of moves - as can be seen in the videos they can link into other manoeuvres.

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    This loop was designed as a three card manoeuvre to be in keeping with the game mechanic, the third card can be anything so is probably why it's not shown.
    I think that's important to mention.

    The loop allows to shoot forward, then shoot backwards and quickly shoot forward again. How do you prevent it from becoming overused? Do you set special rules, such as no shooting while the plane is reversed, or recovery counters before the next one?
    Or are there inherent risks which make it a dangerous maneuver anyway?

    Edit: I got the answer myself. The plane in reverted position is abstracted away.
    I guess you had good reasons to reject solutions with *-reversal-reversal-*
    Last edited by hokusai; 06-20-2021 at 02:43. Reason: Think after write

  20. #20

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    Great work Petr! I like the idea of a sequence of cards that achieves an effect, with the resulting (simple) change in altitude. I never really figured that out before now! This encourages me (and my young wingling/protaginist) to use altitudes in our games!
    Cheers!

    Terry

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    I think that's important to mention.

    The loop allows to shoot forward, then shoot backwards and quickly shoot forward again. How do you prevent it from becoming overused? Do you set special rules, such as no shooting while the plane is reversed, or recovery counters before the next one?
    Or are there inherent risks which make it a dangerous maneuver anyway?

    Edit: I got the answer myself. The plane in reverted position is abstracted away.
    I guess you had good reasons to reject solutions with *-reversal-reversal-*
    Some good reasons to reject solutions with *-reversal-reversal-* for sure.
    This demo might help explain it. https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=284

    "He is wise who watches"

  22. #22

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    First post in the thread updated with this actual version of the rules based on your help and comments:

    Alternative Altitude Rules Unofficial-EN - v1.01.pdf

  23. #23

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    New/casual players naturaly need to look to the rules to see how to perform 3 card maneuvers during the game a lot. Of course the act of looking to the rules could reveal their intension to perform such maneuvers to other players.

    So I made help cards the player can look on to see how 3card maneuver is done if needed. Player can insert this cards to the movement card pack of one of his plane. That way he can look at them without signalizing his opponents he is going to play 3card maneuver.

    Here are the cards (2 same sets on one page):
    maneuveres - cards sml.pdf
    Last edited by bigpetr; 06-20-2021 at 06:24.

  24. #24

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    Great work Petr. I love your 'loop' solution.

    One bit I think isn't necessary. In your continuous climb sequence, you say in #2, only straights and 60* turns keep the climb going. If you play anything else it is an illegal maneuver and the climb sequence ends. In #3 you explain to end a climb sequence you play a stall. Is #3 necessary? #2 says playing anything other than a straight or 60* turn ends the climb. Unless there is a penalty on how you end a climb I don't see #3 as necessary.

    Is gaining 3 climb counters on the Half Loop Up a bit generous?

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Great work Petr. I love your 'loop' solution...
    You're welcome...

    "He is wise who watches"

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Great work Petr. I love your 'loop' solution

    Is gaining 3 climb counters on the Half Loop Up a bit generous?
    I was thinking that as well. I think the 'loops' should only be available to aircraft with a climb rate of 3 or better.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Great work Petr. I love your 'loop' solution.

    One bit I think isn't necessary. In your continuous climb sequence, you say in #2, only straights and 60* turns keep the climb going. If you play anything else it is an illegal maneuver and the climb sequence ends. In #3 you explain to end a climb sequence you play a stall. Is #3 necessary? #2 says playing anything other than a straight or 60* turn ends the climb. Unless there is a penalty on how you end a climb I don't see #3 as necessary.

    Is gaining 3 climb counters on the Half Loop Up a bit generous?
    All loop credits go to flash, he created this loop.

    #3 is not redundant because playing illegal maneuvre gets you A deck damage or another housle rule penalty (like spin). Ending by #3 is legal move without penalty. It is also needed from game mechanic point of view - you need to plan the end of a climb sequence in game turn somehow.

    3 counters for half loop up is what we setted for after test plays. It suits us and our feel from a game, but feel free to lower is as you like and share your experience, please. 2 counters were ok too.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    You're welcome...
    Ok then, I guess you are the one that came up with this? Thank you for the loop solution.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    ... I think the 'loops' should only be available to aircraft with a climb rate of 3 or better.
    See what you're aiming for but that's very limiting and could give a big advantage to the Entente if you think about it. It's naturally limited to machines with Immelmann cards, climb rate of 4 or 5 would be more inclusive of German types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Ok then, I guess you are the one that came up with this? Thank you for the loop solution.
    Thanks Peter. Looking back over the original thread I've realised that was ten years ago this month..!
    Last edited by flash; 06-22-2021 at 04:17.

    "He is wise who watches"

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Thanks Peter. Looking back over the original thread I've realised that was ten years ago this month..!
    10 years ago... before I joined up. Then I didn't really get involved for a couple+ more years. Sadly I've missed a lot of who did what in the early days.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    ...Is gaining 3 climb counters on the Half Loop Up a bit generous?
    Just reading through the thread again and noticed this - I think that Petr may have picked this up from my alt rules. In the generic simple version scouts gain 3 pegs (chits) per climb card and the same during an Immel (on the basis it loses it as it pulls out). I use pegs instead of alt chits and in the expanded version the climb rates are reversed ie a 2 climber gets more chits/pegs per climb than a 5 climber, who has fewer, so on the table it has the appearance of climbing faster.
    With the WoG rules climbing 1 chit would be probably right. This would work the same with the climb in the loop manoeuvre. If a plane can get up there to Immel (effectively a stall turn) it can get up there to perform a loop so the climb rate isn't a factor.

    "He is wise who watches"



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