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Thread: Ammunition limit

  1. #1

    Default Ammunition limit

    Hi all,

    I am keen to try the limited ammo and also not measuring until you have chosen to fire.
    Rather than issuing a set number of damage cards to count down ammo, I am thinking of using dice.

    What do people feel is reasonable (we usually play at least 4 planes each)?
    I see some issue 8 cards to limit ammo...so a D8? Or would D12 be more appropriate?

    I also realise that different planes carried vastly different amounts of ammunition, but that can probably stay in the too-complicated basket for now.

    Cheers, Peter.

  2. #2

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    Peter...

    Please understand that Wings of Glory was designed not to need dice. This is a touchy subject for some (read: ME, at least), and not to be considered for any purpose in Wings of War/Glory.

    However, if you want to use ammo limits, there are a few posts on the Forum that give accurate ammo loads on planes, and coupled with rates of fire for specific weapons, have figured out how many "shots" a given plane would have. Dice are a randomization factor that messes up things that should be hard and fast. Rookie gunners might tend to hold the trigger a bit long, or spray bullets, but good, or even veteran, gunners would have the discipline to conserve ammo. The damage cards already have the hit/miss randomization built in, AFAIK. Adding another randomization would be cruel.

    Please consider in any game with ammo limits, using the "If you measure a shot, you have shot" rule. Rookies will pay dearly for this (Especially if they are actually out of range).

    PS: One of the better posts for ammunition: Thoughts on Armament
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-25-2021 at 21:46.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

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    Thanks again Mike.
    Yes, agreed, the less chance the better. The dice are not for rolling, just as counters to keep a track of how many shots pilots have left before their ammo is exhausted. I take your point though.
    Cheers, Peter.

  4. #4

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    In the Southern Gamers Group they used 7 counters per gun once or twice that seemed to work well. If you want to fire it costs 1 counter.

  5. #5

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    Thanks Gary. The amount of ammo you have left is probably a good thing to keep secret from your opponent. Even an airplane with no ammo could influence opponent’s actions.

  6. #6

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    I have read this too nd having just finished reading Immelmann ‘the Eagle of Lille’ the majority of his flights ended in him running out of petrol rather than ammo. It seems the vast majority of the time was spent spotting an enemy, climbing to the right altitude, and then engaging in the fight which didn’t seem to take long, cutting off the escape route to EA own lines, followed by a dive to follow down the stricken plane. Majority of other flights were either spent returning to base as you had run out of fuel without a close sighting or breaking off on an engagement for the same reason.
    I assume our game focuses mainly on the ‘engagement’ part but realistically, maybe an element of running out of fuel and breaking off is something to consider?

    Certainly one issue of ammo was that there was normally only enough for one kill, rarely enough to go for two or more.
    Last edited by Baz; 03-26-2021 at 04:18.

  7. #7

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    I use limited ammo in OTT solo games for my Lewis armed machines Pete. 3 shots for the 47rd pan, 6 shots for the 97rd pan, roughly based on their rate of fire & a game phase of a couple of seconds. They have 3 pans usually with a 3 phase reload. It can be frustrating to say the least but emphasizes the difference between the belt fed maxims & pan fed weapons. I don't tend to limit ammo on the Maxims, though I limit the parabellums to 9 shots, but I've often found getting more than 6-10 shots off in a standard game is unusual and well within their capacity. The planes draw from the damage deck when needed rather than having a set number of cards. It does add another level of management to the game.

    "He is wise who watches"

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I use limited ammo in OTT solo games for my Lewis armed machines Pete. 3 shots for the 47rd pan, 6 shots for the 97rd pan, roughly based on their rate of fire & a game phase of a couple of seconds. They have 3 pans usually with a 3 phase reload. It can be frustrating to say the least but emphasizes the difference between the belt fed maxims & pan fed weapons. I don't tend to limit ammo on the Maxims, though I limit the parabellums to 9 shots, but I've often found getting more than 6-10 shots off in a standard game is unusual and well within their capacity. The planes draw from the damage deck when needed rather than having a set number of cards. It does add another level of management to the game.
    Cheers Dave.
    It is interesting to get the different perspectives. I can see there is a spectrum of house rules, from next-to-none through to quite involved. I suppose it largely comes down to striking a balance between authenticity and playability.

  9. #9

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    Hmmm... keeping your remaining ammo secret is an important point. Visible counters, remaining damage cards, a die with a number showing, all give info to an opponent.

    Now, how do we keep track of ammo, without the above? Darn! We have to get into admin (pencils on paper), something that Wings of War/Glory specifically avoids (not keeping records is one of the big reasons I love this game). We could consider, shudder, a tracking sheet. I went with this for Battlestar Galactica, primarily to get more ships into a fight with a single set of damage chits. It would work for tracking damage, ammo and fuel, all in one place.

    Example BSG sheet: BSG Damage Tracking Sheet - Version 2.0

    PS: Gack! Admin sheets can't be universal. Too many configurations of ammo, and damage types available. Especially for planes like the SE5 with options for firing A or B damage, from two different ammo storage types. Damage sheets might need to be plane-specific. Bad words!
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-26-2021 at 08:41.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

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    Much as i hate to say it, dice can be useful for denoting Ammo levels.

    They can also help to prevent "me too" firing, which I absolutely hate!

    Case in point - I was convinced that I was just in range to fire at an opposing plane, which was going head-to-head with me.
    I checked with my opponent - did he want to fire? He considered, then said "no".
    I declared that I would indeed fire, and when I measured I was indeed in range; he drew a damage card, and was shot down!
    He then said "Well, in that case, you can have some back" and gave me a damage card!
    Outrageous!

    With dice, each player can position a die on the table, behind his hand, and all players so doing reveal their dice simultaneously - if the die has a "1" uppermost, the player fires, expends a point of ammunition, then measures for range and effect.
    Any other number than "1" holds fire for that card.
    That stops the "me too" blighters!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  11. #11

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    Battlestar Galactica came out with a chit for exactly this. Because of the two-step movement phases, it really does matter who shoots when. In any given Firing Step, if desired to determine if one player may shoot, and the other might retaliate, you use chits of different symbols to simultaneously drop to indicate if someone is going to fire, or not. A target marker chit for firing, and a "G" chit if you don't intend to fire on that step.

    If someone declares they won't be firing, and then, on the results of your damage, changes his mind, shouldn't be able to issue damage. He made a decision, and now he's incapable of return fire. Two seconds, too late.

    PS: Use a "Fire" token for shooting intentions, and a "Jammed" token for holding fire.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-26-2021 at 12:15.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

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    If someone declares they won't be firing, and then, on the results of your damage, changes his mind, shouldn't be able to issue damage. He made a decision, and now he's incapable of return fire. Two seconds, too late.
    I deliberately and conscientiously ignored his damage card for the rest of the game.

    PS: Use a "Fire" token for shooting intentions, and a "Jammed" token for holding fire.
    Now THERE's an idea!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  13. #13

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    Great points. Yes, I can see the ‘me too’ could be a real problem - I like the idea of the simultaneous chits. Physical evidence of each players decision.
    Great stuff!
    Cheers all, P.

  14. #14

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    When I play with limited ammo, I play with poker chips to keep track of ammo.

  15. #15

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    I have used limited ammo a few times and relied on micro dice (the 6mm ones) to keep track. Have used 2 dice for fixed guns and a single dice for the likes of rear firing Lewis guns etc. (And these can be reloaded in a couple of rounds) Has worked well in the past and the dice are small enough not to get in the way. Have usually combined them with a custom console with fuel and ammo markers.

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  16. #16

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    This blows the "No Admin" factor to pieces, but it allows damage and ammo tracking. Not so much for fuel, but that could be added?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    [Edit: Revised Pilot Wound Notes to match actual rules.]
    Note: This is specific for twin-gunned planes, with Vickers MGs. A new one would have to be made for other planes, or if players wanted it laid out for specific house rules. This one implies that certain jams only affect one of the two guns, allowing "B" damage from the unjammed gun, until the jammed gun is cleared.

    PS: This is photocopied both sides, and cut in half. The plane type info would be on the top-outer side, with the damage/ammo tracking on the inside, and a blank bottom-outer side.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 04-01-2021 at 18:56.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #17

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    Looks interesting, Mike. I see it includes a few house rules. With the wounded pilot shooting last, does that mean if he is shot down he doesn’t get to return fire?
    Cheers, P.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot Pete View Post
    With the wounded pilot shooting last, does that mean if he is shot down he doesn’t get to return fire?
    Yes. It's the same for Rookies, when facing non-Rookies, too.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot Pete View Post
    Looks interesting, Mike. I see it includes a few house rules. With the wounded pilot shooting last, does that mean if he is shot down he doesn’t get to return fire?
    Cheers, P.
    I may be mixing WGF and WGS rules. Shooting last is from WGS, IIRC, not WGF. It isn't in the Standard Rules, now that I look.

    Just read through the Battle of Britain Starter Set Rules, and firing last is only for Rookies, not wounded pilots. Will have to amend the above tracking record.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #20

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    Thanks guys. I can see I’m going to need to make up a quick reference sheet until I remember all the details.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot Pete View Post
    Looks interesting, Mike. I see it includes a few house rules. With the wounded pilot shooting last, does that mean if he is shot down he doesn’t get to return fire?
    Cheers, P.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I may be mixing WGF and WGS rules. Shooting last is from WGS, IIRC, not WGF. It isn't in the Standard Rules, now that I look.

    Just read through the Battle of Britain Starter Set Rules, and firing last is only for Rookies, not wounded pilots. Will have to amend the above tracking record.
    Revised Tracking Form above to reflect actual rules for Wounded Pilot Special Damage.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  22. #22

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    Should you consider any difference between a pilot to an observer reloading times regarding a Lewis? The pilot lowering the Lewis, exchanging the magazine then reposition the Lewis all while flying the aircraft and trying to keep his situational awareness seated. The observer is standing, exchanging the magazine and keeping his situational awareness.

    I do like Dave's post of 3 and 6 for the Lewis and 9 for the Parabellums.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Peter...

    Please understand that Wings of Glory was designed not to need dice. This is a touchy subject for some (read: ME, at least), and not to be considered for any purpose in Wings of War/Glory.

    However, if you want to use ammo limits, there are a few posts on the Forum that give accurate ammo loads on planes, and coupled with rates of fire for specific weapons, have figured out how many "shots" a given plane would have. Dice are a randomization factor that messes up things that should be hard and fast. Rookie gunners might tend to hold the trigger a bit long, or spray bullets, but good, or even veteran, gunners would have the discipline to conserve ammo. The damage cards already have the hit/miss randomization built in, AFAIK. Adding another randomization would be cruel.

    Please consider in any game with ammo limits, using the "If you measure a shot, you have shot" rule. Rookies will pay dearly for this (Especially if they are actually out of range).

    PS: One of the better posts for ammunition: Thoughts on Armament




    dice ar ok, UNTIL YOU ROLL THEM!! then theyre demonspawn!

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Should you consider any difference between a pilot to an observer reloading times regarding a Lewis? The pilot lowering the Lewis, exchanging the magazine then reposition the Lewis all while flying the aircraft and trying to keep his situational awareness seated. The observer is standing, exchanging the magazine and keeping his situational awareness.
    Depends how deep / complex you want to go.

    When I started House-Ruling Lewis drum changes, I insisted on the pilot flying straights only (pilot reload) or straights/stalls/curves only (observer reloads).
    I still think that's reasonable, but some of my opponents didn't, so we settled on "any non-steep" for both pilot and observer, for simplicity.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    so we settled on "any non-steep" for both pilot and observer, for simplicity.
    and no reversals, right?

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    and no reversals, right?
    Of course!
    Thought that went without saying...especially with the observer, who will definitely fall out when the plane performs the reversal! (same as for shooting before/during/after reversal card).
    A seated pilot performing a reversal during a drum reload would at the very least lose the new drum overboard; at worst, he'd lose control of the plane and be eliminated.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    lose the new drum overboard
    ...and may hit an opponent flying at lower altitude. Need rules for this.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    ...and may hit an opponent flying at lower altitude. Need rules for this.
    Drum bombs!
    Yes!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  29. #29

    Smile

    I have always used a small D6 to show the 3 shot limit for my Lewis guns in the Solo OTT games. It helps keep track when flying multiple aircraft.
    Just change the dice number each time you shoot.

    Click image for larger version. 

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