Is it allowed to begin the two maneuver sequences with a stall turn instead of a regular stall?
Fokker D.VII stall turns and Split-S/Overdive
Is it allowed to begin the two maneuver sequences with a stall turn instead of a regular stall?
No - all aircraft must perform the same sequence.
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
In the rules, a stall is defined as "A steep maneuver with a short arrow is called a stall." The Overdive and Split-S rules only require a "stall" at the begin of the sequence. I can neither find any reference, that the "straight stall" has to be involved, nor that the sequence maneuvers have to be identical for every aircraft.Originally Posted by Flying Helmut
I don't want to exploit the rules or promote power gaming. I'm just curious.
Last edited by Karo7; 01-29-2021 at 12:54.
We'll need ARES to make a ruling on if the short steep turns are considered 'Stalls'.
I have asked Andrea about. Let's see what his answer is.
If you can use the turn stalls for a split-s this will make the DVII even more powerful!
Yes, not a good thing imo. The D.VII doesn't need any help.
I understand the potential interpretation in favor, but I don't think it's what's intended in the rules. Will be interesting to hear Andrea's answer. Depends on the definition of a Stall. I interpret it as referring to the specific card pictured as in this example.
p 7 of the WoG Rules & Accessories: "To play the Immelmann card, a player must plan a Straight move (a card with the {up arrow} symbol) immediately before performing the Immelmann, and another straight move immediately after the Immelmann." Also a Stall card is pictured from T deck similar to above with the straight short arrow with caption "A steep maneuver with a short arrow is called a stall." This may not preclude the L deck stall turn being a "short arrow" but it's not a straight.
p15 the Split-S is tied to the Immelmann rule: "To plan a Split-S, a player uses the standard Immelmann card, but it must be preceded by a stall and followed by a straight."
Yes, I think I already know what Andreas' answer will be. It just came to my mind and I want it to be clarified.
Climb, Dive, Overdive, Immelmann, Split-S, all change altitude.
All can only be played in a straight line.
If you allow a change to any one (or more) of these, you destroy the symmetry of the entire altitude system - and all for the benefit of the scout which is already (arguably) the most capable and powerful in the game.
I suspect that when the Split-S Rule was written, the 'L' deck hadn't even been released.
Hey, I'm a Fokker D.VII fan; possibly the biggest such fan on the Forum, but I wouldn't allow this change even if Andrea says Yes (and I don't for one moment believe that he will!).
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Ummm...
Acrobatic Pilot:
This pilot may perform a non-straight manoeuvre after an Immelmann, or, a Split-S.
There have been discussions about wing-overs, where a plane rolls over into a dive. I could see the D.VII using a turn that looses altitude, because planes can do it. It isn't in the current maneuver decks, but I saw (and have copies) of player-created climbing and diving turn cards for early maneuver decks.
House rules could cover even this.
Mike
"Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
"Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59
I think the "stall" is clearly as a steep maneuver defined.
So there is no room for interpretations.
The Phoenix X deck has a similar non steep maneuver card. Just because it looks like a stall is hasn't to be one like demanded for some special maneuvers.
Last edited by Marechallannes; 01-30-2021 at 22:16.
Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!
I'd think that's spot on Tim and the stall was designated in the first WoW rule sets under engine damage along with an image on p10.
...The plane has to play at least one stall Maneuver each turn (see besides - one with a short arrow and the <> symbol)
Sapiens qui vigilat "He is wise who watches"
Yeah, I know!
But Aces are the EXCEPTION to the norm.
And anyway, that's after the manoeuvre, not before it.
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
All planes can already turn and roll over into a dive - play a Turn card before the Stall..................
As for House Rules covering this I agree, and players should feel free to implement whichever House Rules they want - having bought the game, it belongs to them and they should make any changes they wish.
The question was, however, about the interpretation of the Rules As Written, not House Rule changes.
My personal opinion is that the altitude system should remain in straight lines only, for ease of use by new players as much as for anything else.
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
It's not the non-steep "stall" being discussed, Sven, it's the Left and Right "short-steep-turn" cards.
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
Right - the Phoenix is a bad example.
...but this does not change my statement.
Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!
I have just received this surprising feedback from Andrea:
Dear Florian,
yes - the curved "stalls" are definitely stalls for every rule. Even for the rule of making a stall every turn when you have a damaged engine. As you say they are short arrows, and they are steep. So they are within the definition.
Not so the #15 card, a kind of "unsteep stall", since it's not steep.
Have a great time!
Andrea
Well well, a turn before a spilt-s. Now it will be a lot trickier dealing with the deadly DVII!
Seems not so easy. I have received a second message from Andrea. He will clarify this topic more detailed, soon.
Hello!
Thanks a lot to Karo7 for calling me.
Well, you have several good points here.
First: true, a stall is defined as a straight arrow with a steep symbol. So the curved stalls of the Fokker D.VII can be considered stalls, the non-steep short arrows of the D.VII and of the Phoenix are not stalls.
Second: true, I designed the L deck after having written the rules with the definition of stall and Split-S. I thought that the new cards did not conflict with the rules: you could use them when you had a broken engine.
Third: you have a good point saying that a curved stall at the start of a Split-s (while there is not the possibility of a curve before an Immelmann) is a bit too much.
All considered, today, I'd rather write the rule to define the stall differently: "A straight steep maneuver with a short arrow is called a stall." That's simplier. Or at least, I'd ask for a "straight stall" before a Split-S or a overdive.
Whew! No super DVII.
Thanks for the clarification Andrea.
Thank you Andrea for the clarification. I am happy about the outcome.
Thought so!
No changes needed then.
Hurrah!
I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!
[propeller hang intensifies]
id still classify the dvii as pretty super being able to use the stall turns to fulfil the engine damage requirement.
I interpreted Andreas answer in that way, that only the straight short steep arrow is going to be classified as a stall. So no engine damage advantage for the D7.
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