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Thread: Exactly Where We Want Them.. Pup's v Roland's

  1. #1

    Default Exactly Where We Want Them.. Pup's v Roland's

    Roland D.II v Sopwith Pup - an experiment with the W deck

    The Pup has long been assigned the D deck, same as the Dr.1, but it doesn't quite fit the bill as it should have a sharp turn either way, and should it be one, or, two ?
    Testing out the W deck in a game as it fits the bill, though it does lack the wide sideslips of the D deck.

    Billy and Johnny are making their way home from 'Hunland' when they become aware of some company coming to join them from all points of the compass -
    Dead ahead at 12 and from 8 and 4 o'clock - Fritz, the German lead, at 12 o'clock smiles at the execution of their plan; Billy takes in the situation at a glance, both think the same thing .. "Exactly where we want then !"
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    Johnny breaks hard right but Hans, coming up from 4 o'clock, is on him like a rash and rounds clatter through Johnny's cdl tail.
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    Billy meanwhile bores straight ahead and takes on Fritz's fast approaching plane. The punishment he receives is harsh but his opposite number ducks out of sight.. Has he been hit ?
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    Glancing back as he passes the Hun leader, Billy's sure he's been hit; he sees Johnny has slipped out of the noose and has left the Hun's to meet in up the middle.
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    Billy swings round behind the Hun lead, soon realising he can't be hit all that badly as he Immels and comes streaking back toward him
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    Johnny has also turned back toward the centre and finds himself being pursued by the other Huns, Otto, from the 8 o'clock position & his old fried Hans who shot up his tail, who has also reversed.
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    Johnny has a minor disaster when his gun jams at the crucial moment - and Hans lashes his Pup from end to end causing thin white smoke to emit from the engine.
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    Hans is pleased with his work but he doesn't see Billy hurtling in from his left until too late - his machine shudders and belches fire
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    Fritz & Otto goose their motors to get back and cover their comrade as the Pups pass close in free air behind him.
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    Billy whips his Pup round sharply and gets another burst into Han's stricken machine, rounds crackle past his cockpit from Fritz's guns, the warning is clear..
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    Even as Billy noses up and unleashes on Otto as he Immels, Fritz drops on him like a ton of bricks and his machine is almost shattered by the impact of the German's rounds
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    Johnny closes to survey the damage as Billy pulls together what is left of his Pup and sets course for home, Billy waves him off and Johnny decides to cover his retreat..
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    Johnny bravely sets out after the retreating Hun only to find them all turning in pursuit of them, he just manages to slip past Fritz but it looks that Billy has got clear
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    Johnny suddenly realises he might have a problem - the Hun's, realising Billy is away, are turning after HIM !
    What he doesn't know is the Han's, his fire out, has to head for the barn.
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    Johhny Immels and rushes back through the Hun formation untouched..
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    His gun barking as he goes as a cheerio to Otto before he dives away to join his wingman
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    I called it there as there was no way the Roland's could now catch Johnny. Honours even I think.


    Butcher's Tally

    Billy & Johnny
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    Billy FRTB-D; Johnny RTB

    Fritz, Hans & Otto
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    Fritz RTB WIA; Hans FRTB-D; Otto RTB

    So, a nice blooding for the Roland's, a nice outing for the Pups with sharp turns each way.
    All positions were randomly drawn, all planes were AI driven using my D8 charts, with little use of my Alt rules to keep it simple.
    The Pups work well with the W deck - 1 sharp turn seems enough against it's contemporaries but is it manoeuvrable enough without the wide sideslips ? Maybe not, but it requires no additions to it and the loss may be minimal.
    The alternative is take the second sharp right of a D deck & make it into a left and call it something else which I might still do yet - though that will need to have it's own AI chart !
    Hope you enjoyed the experiment.
    Last edited by flash; 03-15-2021 at 10:27.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  2. #2

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    I loved that AAR. Descriptive enough to "hear" what the pilots were thinking, and the pictures were great visual aids. Thank you for sharing.


  3. #3

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    Great action, dave!

    That 'W' deck looks ideal!

    You need to paint something more fire-retardant on your Rolands, though...
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  4. #4

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    Rep gun jammed

    Thank you for the detailed test report! I own two Valom Pups and wasn't satisfied with the D-Deck, too.

  5. #5

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    Great looking game. Nice to see some less well known aircraft in action. Well worthy of some Rep but guns are currently jammed.

  6. #6

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    Thanks chaps, it was a fun diversion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karo7 View Post
    ...I own two Valom Pups and wasn't satisfied with the D-Deck, too.
    Discussions suggest the Pup could out turn the Albatros, to do that it would need sharp turns in both directions.
    The W deck is convenient as it requires no further input - I'm not on the stats committee, so maybe the wide sideslips are necessary to add to general handiness but the only way to achieve that is changing the D deck to something new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    ..You need to paint something more fire-retardant on your Rolands, though...
    Yeah, you're not kidding, that 5 came as a nasty surprise, however, some of their shooting wasn't bad !

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  7. #7

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    Nice test drive Flash! Love your AAR!

  8. #8

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    Nice AAR, and it does seem to support the W deck for Pups. Hm, maybe more data is in order, with D decks in some, W decks in others.
    Like others, though, my rep guns seemed to be jammed.

  9. #9

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    Nice to see Sopwith Pubs in action, Dave.
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  10. #10

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    This thread has some ideas on the Pup's deck if anyone wants a look.
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...ith-Pup-Stats-!!

    and another:
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...37-Sopwith-Pup
    Last edited by flash; 01-31-2021 at 02:53.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  11. #11

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    Nice AAR - love the mat
    Seems better for photos than the Ares ones.

    The alternative is take the second sharp right of a D deck & make it into a left and call it something else which I might still do yet - though that will need to have it's own AI chart !
    The two I got from an ex-dromer have 'D' decks crudely modified like that.

    I think the Pup deserves the sideslips as well as the sharp left. Now, what to do about those D8s ....

    Oh, and my REP guns worked just fine.

  12. #12

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    If I can print the deck on the link I will give it a go & do a D8 chart for it. They always come out the wrong size ?

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  13. #13

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    If we use the D deck for the Pup, trade one 90* right for a 90* left and keep the rest could it use the current F deck maneuver chart?

  14. #14

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    Love the AAR andlove the mat. Baxter has one of those and photos always turn out so well!

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    If we use the D deck for the Pup, trade one 90* right for a 90* left and keep the rest could it use the current F deck maneuver chart?
    I thought the 'F' deck was in a faster speed band, with longer arrows?
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    If we use the D deck for the Pup, trade one 90* right for a 90* left and keep the rest could it use the current F deck maneuver chart?
    I'll have a look at it - Pete, that or I'll chop the D around & make it an individual D*

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    I thought the 'F' deck was in a faster speed band, with longer arrows?
    The speed is not the point, the moves are.
    Multiple decks use the same AI chart eg: D & U use the same chart, moves are the same; speeds are different.



    PS. Had a quick look Peter - it would fit the bill - only the broad sideslips are the other type, so I'll need to do a proper one eventually. That cuts the work needed right down though.
    Last edited by flash; 01-29-2021 at 15:39.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  17. #17

    Thumbs up

    Great experiment Dave!
    Ares really need to do a Pup release with a deck dedicated just to it.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I'll have a look at it - Pete, that or I'll chop the D around & make it an individual D*


    The speed is not the point, the moves are.
    Multiple decks use the same AI chart eg: D & U use the same chart, moves are the same; speeds are different.



    PS. Had a quick look Peter - it would fit the bill - only the broad sideslips are the other type, so I'll need to do a proper one eventually. That cuts the work needed right down though.
    A wide sideslip is a wide sideslip, doesn't matter if the card is turned 90* or not. I'd just make a note for the chart and a Pup's use of it.

  19. #19

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    Great AAR and discussion.

  20. #20

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    That was a good fight. I think I might have a balsa pup or two somewhere. Must dig them out and try them with the W deck too.

  21. #21

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    If you follow the link in post #10 Gary there's an adjusted D deck that may fit the bill too if you want to give it a try.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    A wide sideslip is a wide sideslip, doesn't matter if the card is turned 90* or not. I'd just make a note for the chart and a Pup's use of it.
    Oh, I know that but just for aesthetics.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    A wide sideslip is a wide sideslip, doesn't matter if the card is turned 90* or not. I'd just make a note for the chart and a Pup's use of it.
    I have a D* AI chart in the mod queue Peter - it is slightly different to the straight F deck we discussed - more a meld between the F & D/U charts.

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I have a D* AI chart in the mod queue Peter - it is slightly different to the straight F deck we discussed - more a meld between the F & D/U charts.
    Nice. I'll be looking for it.

  25. #25

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    Hope I can remember how to add a new deck to my Excel.

  26. #26

  27. #27

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    nice piece of work Dave. Love using your solo game charts. It's been interesting reading how long this Pup Is it a "D" or a "D+" or a "D-" conversation has been going on.



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