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Thread: Error in Ju.88A-4 management card?

  1. #1

    Default Error in Ju.88A-4 management card?

    I think I spotted an error in the Ju.88A-4's management card. It indicates the bombardier can shoot either the forward MG or the starboard rear MG (guns 1 and 3).
    That's plainly impossible for him to do. It should have the flight engineer using either of the rear dorsal guns (guns 2 and 3).
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  2. #2

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    Blimey, the bomb aimer would have been busier than a one-armed paper hanger over England
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  3. #3

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    The capacity for the crewman II to use the rear machine gun 2 might be possible thanks to the skill card GUNLOCK FOR FRONTAL MACHINE GUN, which is included in the Junkers Ju.88 A-4 (WGS305B pack).
    I ask Ares if the changing position is also possible without the use of this skill card.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #4

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    I came up with this on my original A-4 card:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Based on these firing arcs (Attempting to keep to the Ares arcs, for the most part):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Originally, this was the firing arc configuration:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Using this reference for a second ventral nose gun:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    PS: Found this image of a captured Ju.88, with four civilians demonstrating the crowded cockpit:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I don't see room for two crew using the dorsal guns, if the ventral gunner is in position.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 01-18-2021 at 08:24.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

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    Heck, I don't see how the bomb-aimer can get in position to do that job, in flight!
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  6. #6

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    No Social Distancing in there!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  7. #7

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    I'm trying to sort out the front machine gun installations, and how they were used.

    I found this site, about building a Ju.88 D-1, but the cockpit wouldn't have been that different, I think. Link: www.scalespot.com Reviews -Ju88 D-1
    This shows the entire assembly instructions in good detail, and there is (as best as I can determine) a 20mm nose gun mount option (Assembly Step 80) in the place of the bomber aim sight. The instructions offer two optional nose glazings, one for the bomb sight (F12), and one with what I think is a pane that would open for the 20mm to slide out into firing position (F16).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I can't find any internal images or drawings of the A-4 installation with upper and lower 7.92mm MG81Js mounted, but there are lots of external drawings with two nose MGs. Ares appears to have either left out the lower MG, or combined the arcs into one.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 01-19-2021 at 07:52.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    It should have the flight engineer using either of the rear dorsal guns (guns 2 and 3).
    It seems that Karl is right, according to the PROFILE PUBLICATIONS 29 - JUNKERS JU.88A, page 5 (free download).

    (Roman numbers below are linked to crew position on WOG Ju.88 plane card)
    The pilot (I) in a raised seat to port, the bombardier/air gunner (II) to the pilot’s right below him in the body of the fuselage ; the engineer/air gunner (IV) occupied a prone position in the central gondola facing to the rear. The wireless operator/air gunner (III) sat behind the pilot facing to the rear.
    In four-gun aircraft the ventral gunner doubled as a second upper rear gunner.


    Let’s see why Ares has chosen this changing position on the Ju.88 A-4 management card.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #9

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    Sooo...

    Something like this?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I can't find any internal images or drawings of the A-4 installation with upper and lower 7.92mm MG81Js mounted, but there are lots of external drawings with two nose MGs.
    Ares appears to have either left out the lower MG, or combined the arcs into one.
    In the the PROFILE PUBLICATIONS 29 - JUNKERS JU.88A, page 5, it is notified that :
    The exact armament pattern of the Ju.88 A-4 varied, but usually consisted of two MG firing forward, one single or twin MG firing aft from the ventral gondola, and two MG firing aft from the rear of the canopy.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Your plane card is interesting, Mike, but as notified it may be for a late A-4 version.
    Ares has made the choice of a standard A-4 version with only one front MG.
    The skill card ADDITIONAL MG (included int the JU.88 WGS305B pack) adds a forward firing MG with the following limitations :

    Click image for larger version. 

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    In the PROFILE PUBLICATIONS JU.88 (pages 10-11), some interesting drawings of the front and rear MGs (except the one on the ventral gondola).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #11

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    Looking through all my images, all I can say at this point is I'm confused. Source drawings are not accurately marked, nor identified, as far as I'm concerned.

    I have drawings for A-1s with single and dual dorsal gun mounts. These would be MG15s with drum mags, I think.

    I have drawings for A-4s with single and dual dorsal gun mounts. The duals appear to be armored B-Stand mounts, with MG81s, if I'm at all close.

    I don't have effectivity dates for any of these, so "Early" or "Late" designations I have applied are based on the drawings, not on dates. So, as far as I can determine, any "Early" or "Late" label on my cards are completely arbitrary, not factual.

    Some collected drawings below:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Line drawings of what I think are A-4s:

    Single B-Stand dorsal gun:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Dual B-Stand dorsal guns with slightly bulged rear cockpit windows (which I have labelled as "Late"):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you look carefully, you can see a lower nose gun in the above drawing.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Heck, I don't see how the bomb-aimer can get in position to do that job, in flight!
    It looks like the bombardier/gunner's seat beside the pilot folds flat and he may be able to wriggle under it via the ventral gondola too. Maybe when the ventral gunner is in position the gunner above him has to straddle the gondola if on the second gun ?
    Looks like musical chairs on the card - fascinating project, good luck with it Mike !

    "He is wise who watches"

  13. #13

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    OK with all the new info, I would say the flight engineer could switch between the ventral gun and the starboard dorsal gun. The wireless operator could switch between either dorsal guns.
    Yes, guns on the A series was a mess to read about. I can see why the Junkers' design team went to a single dorsal mount.
    BTW Mike: the D series is based on the A-4.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  14. #14

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    Here an other document to add up to the confusion. The guns instruction manual of Ju88A-4 and D1, September 41.

    https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attach...-wa-pdf.94105/

    Following guns are described here:

    -A-Stand
    1 MG81 (fixed or movable)

    -B-Stand
    2 MG81

    -B-Stand, additional in side windows
    2 MG15

    -C-Stand
    1 MG 81 Z

    Chapter III.C says
    - the forward MG81 and the 2 MG15 can be operated by the observer
    - forward MG81 fixed or movable can also be operated by the pilot
    - the MG81s in B-Stand and the right MG15 can be operated by the wireless operator
    - the right MG81 in B-Stand can also be operated by the observer. Fold down the backrest of the observer seat
    - MG81Z operated by gunner

  15. #15

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    Thank you Fabrizio.
    This incredible Ju.88 document shows that the Ares Ju.88 A-4 management card is correct.
    The observer could switch position from frontal machine gun to the rear right machine gun.
    Rep points dropped !

    Anyway, Karl, it is a very interesting thread and we have learnt a lot.

    Translation from German (with Roman number from crew management card)
    Flugzeugfuhrer : Pilot officer (I)
    Beobachter : observer (II)
    Funker : radio operator (III)
    Fliegerschutze : in flight gunner, in the ventral gondola, operating the rear ventral machine gun (IV)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #16

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    OK then.
    Thanks very much Fabrizio for the doc.
    I would say you need at least 1 phase to do this change, maybe 3.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I would say you need at least 1 phase to do this change, maybe 3.
    The official rule for Switching position for a crewman in multiengine plane indicates that it needs 3 turns.
    (page 30-31 of the Battle of Britain rulebook)
    Each turn is composed of 3 phases : Planning - Movement - Firing (page 7).

    First turn : moving crewman marker on the black line between the connected role circles.
    Second turn : moving crewman marker on the role circle.
    Third turn : crewman on new position is ready to shoot.

    So it means two turns without firing for a crewman switching position.

    Click image for larger version. 

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