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Thread: New planes for the V2 list

  1. #51

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    Sorry, Fabrizio, for the delay, and thank you for your patience.
    The best solution is, indeed, a scaled deck; note the XC deck is the B-17's:
    Fiat RS.14 float plane:
    Deck: XC(80%); Hits: 23; ceiling: 7; climb: 7 HR: 3
    Guns: Dorsal turret: A/A, 306 high only; Waist guns: 3-5 O'Clock and 7-9 O'Clock high to low, A/A.
    First models: some might have a front gun A/A front arc high to low. Some of the second batch replaced this with
    2 nose guns, A/A 1-2 and 10-11 O'Clock high to low.
    Gun manning is a question: wiki says 3 crew; a russian source says 4-5, which makes much more sense.
    Front gun(s) is the observer/bombardier's job. The turret is probably the radioman's job. If their is a 5th
    crewmember, he gets both waist guns. Otherwise, the RO does that. He better be fast on his feet!
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Sorry, Fabrizio, for the delay, and thank you for your patience.
    Thanks Karl, no problem. Due to job issues the plane is anyway not able to fly (and to float) yet.

    My docs also state that crew was 4-5. Could not find any reference for front guns, though. Must have been some seldom used option.

    The 20 degree turn of XC seems a bit pessimistic compared to 30 degrees of Rzb for the CANT 506. Here is what I found in a publication (translated from italian)

    ...Yet the RS.14 has the merit of being far more manoeuvrable in combat than the massive three-engine aircraft: more than one pilot is saved by the ability to make sharp turns and sudden dives...

  3. #53

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    Well, the problem with this is that the Fiat RS.14 uses a bomber base (>19m wingspan), and no
    bomber in the game has a 45 degree turn. Nor do any of the heavy fighters.
    The wingloading and power to weight ratio is very close to the B-17, which was one reason I chose this deck.
    This is, unfortunately, one of the factors of this game engine.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  4. #54

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    OK: a big release of Spanish Civil war planes.
    Discussion and the link to the new table will be on it's own thread.
    Karl

    Bloch MB210: Deck: O(zb)(8); Hits: 24 ceiling: 11 climb: 7; B base.
    Guns: Nose gun: A/A 10:00 to 2:00; Dorsal gun: A/A 360, level to high, with rear blindspots;
    Vental gun: A/A 4:00 to 8:00 low only.

    Bréguet 19A2: Deck: V(b); guns: A/A; A/A; Hits: 14; ceiling: 8; climb: 8; F base; HR: 2

    Gourdou-Leseurre GL.32: Deck: B(z); Guns: A/A; Hits: 14; ceiling: 11; climb: 6; F base; HR; 2,3

    Gourdou-Leseurre GL.432: DEck: V(z); Guns: A/A; Hits: 14; ceiling: 10; climb: 6; F base; HR: 2,3

    Polikarpov R-5: Deck: V(z); Guns: A/A; A/A; Hits: 15; ceiling: 7; climb: 6; HF base; HR: 2

    Polikarpov R-Z: DEck: Q(z)(7); Guns: A/A; A/A; Hits: 16; ceiling: 10; climb: 6; HF base; HR: 2

    Potez 540: Deck: Q(zb); Hits: 20; ceiling: 11; climb: 7; HF base; Guns:
    Nose gun: A/A 9:00 to 3:00; Dorsal gun: A/A 360, high only,
    Vental gun: A/A 360, low only.

    Avia BH-33: Deck: A(z); guns: A/A; Hits: 14; ceiling: 9; climb: 5; F base. HR: 2, 3 Note: deck should also have a 60 degree turn.

    Dewoitine D.371: Deck: ZJ; Guns: A/A (or B/A); Hits: 14; ceiling: 12; climb: 3; F base; HR: 2,3.

    Dewoitine D.510: Deck: ZJ; Guns: C-A/A; Hits: 15; ceiling: 12; climb: 3; F base; HR: 2

    Dewoitine D.500: Deck: ZJ; Guns: B or A/A; Hits: 15; ceiling: 9; climb: 3; F base; HR: 2

    Dewoitine D.27: Deck: Q(z)(1); Guns: A/A; Hits: 14; ceiling: 10; climb: 5; F base; HR: 2

    Letov Š-231: Deck: ZM; Guns: A/A; Hits: 14; ceiling: 10; climb: 5; F base; HR: 2,3. Note: needs a 60 degree turn.

    Loire 46: Deck: ZJ; Guns: B/A; Hits: 15; ceiling: 13; climb: 3; F base; HR: 2,3.

    Nieuport-Delage NiD 52: Deck: D(z); Guns: A/A; Hits: 15; ceiling: 9; climb: 7; F base: HR: 2.

    Dornier Do.17E/F: Q(zb)(8); Hits: 21; ceiling: 6/7; climb: 8 HF base;
    Dorsal Gun: A/A, 5-7 o'clock, high only
    Ventral Gun: A/A, 5-7 o'clock, low only.

    Dornier Do.17M/P: XE(8); Hits: 21; ceiling: 8; climb: 8 HF base;
    Front Gun: A/A, 11-2 o'clock level only
    Dorsal Gun: A/A, 5-7 o'clock, high only
    Ventral Gun: A/A, 5-7 o'clock, low only.

    Polikarpov I-15: DEck: ZM; Guns: B/A; Hits: 14; ceiling: 11; climb: 4; F base; HR: 2,3

    Tupolev SB SM-100: Deck: XE(50%); Hits: 22; ceiling: 9; climb: 9; HF base; HR: 1,2,3
    Nose guns: forward arc, high to low, B/A
    Dorsal gun: rear 180 degree arc, level to high, A/A
    Ventral gun: rear arc, low only A/A
    Note the same crewman uses the dorsal and ventral gun.

    Heinkel He 111B: Deck: S(zb)(6); Hits: 25; ceiling: 8; climb: 7; B base;
    Nose gun: front arc, level only;
    Dorsal gun: rear arc, level to high w/ BS
    Ventral gun: rear arc, low only.

    Heinkel He 111E: Deck: XA; Hits: 26; ceiling: 8; climb: 7; B base.
    Nose gun: front arc, level only;
    Dorsal gun: rear arc, level to high w/ BS
    Ventral gun: rear arc, low only.

    Henschel Hs 126: Deck: ZL(-90); Guns: A/A and A/A; Hits: 16; ceiling: 10; climb: 5; F base; HR: 2, 3.

    Junkers Ju 86 D: Deck: T(zb)(6); Hits: 22; ceiling: 7; climb: 8; B base; HR: 1,2,3
    Nose turret: front arc. Dorsal gun: 3:00 to 9:00 level to high, no blindspot.
    Ventral gun: 4:00 to 8:00 low. All are A/A.



    Messerschmitt Bf 109A: Deck: K(1); Guns: A/A; Hits: 16; ceiling: 10; climb: 5; F base;

    Messerschmitt Bf 109B: Deck: K(1); Guns: A/A; Hits: 16; ceiling: 10; climb: 5; F base;

    Messerschmitt Bf 109C: Deck: K(1); Guns: B/A; Hits: 16; ceiling: 10; climb: 5; F base;

    Messerschmitt Bf 109D: Deck: K(1); Guns: B/A; Hits: 16; ceiling: 11; climb: 5; F base;

    Breda Ba.65: Deck: I(-db); Guns: B-A/A; Hits: 16; ceiling: 7; climb: 7; F base; HR: 2,3.

    Cant Z-506: Deck: T(zb)(8): Hits: 28; ceiling: 8; climb: 8; B base; HR: 3
    Dorsal turret, 360, level to high, with a front arc blind spot A/A
    Ventral gun: rear arc, low, A/A
    Waist guns (often not present): 3:00 to 5:00, and 7:00 to 9:00, level, A/A

    Caproni Ca-310: Deck: T(zb)(8); Hits: 18; ceiling: 8; climb: 8; HF base; HR: 2,3
    Fixed forward guns: A/A 12 o'clock line only;
    Dorsal turret: 360 level to high w/ tail BS.

    Caproni AP-1: Deck: ZJ; Guns: A/A and A/A; Hits: 15; ceiling: 9; climb: 6; F base; HR: 2,3.

    IMAM Ro.37: Deck: ZM; Guns: A/A and A/A; Hits: 15; ceiling: 8; climb: 6; F base; HR: 2,3.

    Heinkel He 112B-0: Deck: D; Guns: C-C-A/C; Hits: 15; ceiling: 10; climb: 4, F base.

    Blériot-SPAD S.51: Deck: C(z); Guns: A/A; Hits: 14; ceiling: 9; climb: 6; F base; HR: 2,3
    Last edited by Jager; 11-07-2022 at 13:12. Reason: sp again!
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  5. #55

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    Making an attempt at a Fiat RS.14 card.

    Now have a decent line drawing:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    As to crew. Some info indicates three crew. The number of positions available makes this implausible. There were two definite cockpit positions. Internally, there was a way to access all fuselage positions. So any crew member could get to any other position, eventually. If the Italians stuck with only three crew, there would be one pilot, a gunner/bombadier/photographer, and a radio operator/gunner.

    This would make flying/fighting this plane very difficult, but not impossible.

    If you want all the guns manned, you need five, and one of the cockpit crew would be double-tasked, and/or the waist guns would be crewed by a single gunner.

    PS:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    We are going Bomber base, on this, right?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 11-08-2022 at 13:13.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  6. #56

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    Bomber base, yes.
    And I would go with a 5 man crew. Switching between waist guns was not unheard of in WW2 aircraft, esp. early ones and non-bombers.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    a big release of Spanish Civil war planes.
    Great work Karl. Big work ahead to produce all those cool planes

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Making an attempt at a Fiat RS.14 card.
    .. and great work here, Mike, as usual

    My model is of 170 Squadriglia 83 Gruppo RM, just in case you are looking for a unit

  8. #58

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    OK. What if we went with 5 crew: Observer/Bombardier (front gunner?); Pilot; Co-Pilot; Radio Operator/Dorsal Gunner; Waist Gunner (both sides, one at a time, one phase to switch positions).

    And the Management Card would look like this:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note: Amended the Gruppo number. [Edit: Corrected Italian spelling.]
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 11-09-2022 at 19:58.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #59

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    [Edit: Corrected Italian spelling, and changed Aircraft ID.]
    [Re-Edit: Removed the Ventral firing arc dot from the card, as there are no Ventral guns. Oops.]
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 11-18-2022 at 11:13.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #60

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    Almost perfect. Just a typo, should be Squadriglia
    Please change plane number to 170-8

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    Almost perfect. Just a typo, should be Squadriglia
    Please change plane number to 170-8
    Fabrizio,
    My Italian spelling isn't as good as my English, which isn't really great, either. Thanks for the Proof-reading.

    Cards fixed above.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #62

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    Mike - great looking cards

  13. #63

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    Just because this is a unique plane (and color scheme):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    [Edit: Stats corrected]

    Anyone painted up an LN.401?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 11-12-2022 at 11:17.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Just because this is a unique plane (and color scheme):

    Attachment 320773
    [Note: I lost access to the site last night, and couldn't reference the stats. It will be fixed tonight.]

    Anyone painted up an LN.401?
    Great card as usual Mike.

    I have some to paint up. Mine will be for the France '40 campaign and not Vichy.

  15. #65

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    LN.401 card corrected, now that I can access the site.

    Steve [MrWibbles] did have LN.411 cards in his album, but that was lost in the Great Hacking of 2012. If members have specific paint jobs, units and crews, I can now do them up, too.

    PS: The card is too small to see all the work...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Something for the French fliers:
    Bloch MB.151/152:
    D deck. Hits 16, ceiling 11, climb 5 Guns are A/B for the 151 or C-C-A/C for the 152.

    Loire-Nieuport LN.401/411
    Deck: ZJ( with divebombing cards added) Damage: 15 Ceiling: 11 Climb: 6 Guns: C-A/A

    Amiot 143: Deck Q(Z)b. Damage 22. Ceiling: 9. Climb: 8.
    Guns: Front turret: A/A 9 O'clock to 3 O'clock, low to high
    Dorsal turret: A/A, 360 level to high with B.S. front and rear arcs
    Front ventral: A/A 10 O'clock to 2 O'c clock, low
    Rear ventral: A/A 4 O' clock to 8 O' clock low.
    I am 'dartboarding' planes on Karl's list, and the next victim could be this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cause I have to do a Crew Management card, too...

    PS: Hmmm...

    This indicates the French Air Force had 6-man crews:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    What up with that?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 11-12-2022 at 23:43.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #67

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    Nice. I have a pair of Amiot 143s to paint. I'll bump them up the list.

  18. #68

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    Anyone have a better line drawing of the Amiot 143M?

    Otherwise, we are working with this:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  19. #69

  20. #70

  21. #71

  22. #72

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    Nice one Zoe. Seeing your a few years ago spurred me on to get a pair for myself. Now to paint them!

  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lacking a top-down image, this is a rough try:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Unit and crew?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  24. #74

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    Firing Arc check, please?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    [Edit: Changed Unit background to reflect Allied color. Added Dorsal Turret blindspot to at-level firing arc.]
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 11-18-2022 at 10:56.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  25. #75

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    Looks good according to the drawing you posted above.

  26. #76

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    I went with five crew, as there wasn't room for the Flight Engineer.

    Note the very busy Bombardier/Gunner/Pilot-Navigator in position II:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    [Edit: Adjusted to remove the Bombardier as discussed below.]

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 11-18-2022 at 21:40.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  27. #77

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    Edits to the Amiot 143M Play Card in Post #74 to fix Allied Unit background color and add the Blindspot to the #2 at-level firing arc.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  28. #78

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    No co-pilot on this beast, huh?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  29. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I went with five crew, as there wasn't room for the Flight Engineer.

    Note the very busy Bombardier/Gunner/Pilot-Navigator in position II:

    Thoughts?
    Actually, the bombardier rule is not represented in WoG. For consistency you could drop it? Or we could introduce some official unofficial bombardier rule? E.g. if bombardier is not in his position, bombing is not possible?

  30. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    Actually, the bombardier rule is not represented in WoG. For consistency you could drop it? Or we could introduce some official unofficial bombardier rule? E.g. if bombardier is not in his position, bombing is not possible?
    Isn't there a "Precision Bombardier" skill in WGF? I would expect that to migrate to WGS, eventually.

    Navigators are not part of the game, but for the Amiot 143M, there is a crew member that does that. Additionally, the aircraft has dual flight controls in the "Navigator" position, as well. So, although I have marked the Management Card with the Bombardier and Navigator positions, the plane can still be flown, if the Pilot is incapacitated, as long as a crewman is in the Navigator position. Should that be the Bombardier/Gunner/Navigator (B/G/N), he doesn't need the Emergency Pilot Ace Skill, as it should be assumed he can fly the plane.

    Mostly, I put all those crew positions on the card because there needs to be someone in one of the three positions depending on what the plane is doing. You can't emergency fly the plane while bombing, if the B/G/N crewman is the Bombardier, or you can't shoot the forward Ventral gun while bombing, etc...
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  31. #81

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    Hmmm...

    Yeah. Looking at the Amiot 143M, and comparing other planes, there is no 'Bombardier' crew. If I go back to all other planes, the Bombardier is always represented as a Gunner, or the Pilot is the bomb-releaser. So, players just have to keep in mind there are times they have to manage that task, and forego a shot with a gun arc, if required.

    So, as you say, Karl, consistency or convention would not have the Bombardier position represented. Even if there is a skill in the mix.

    I'll see about adjusting the card.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  32. #82

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    Amiot 143M Management Card in Post #76 adjusted as per discussion.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  33. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Hmmm...

    Yeah. Looking at the Amiot 143M, and comparing other planes, there is no 'Bombardier' crew. If I go back to all other planes, the Bombardier is always represented as a Gunner, or the Pilot is the bomb-releaser. So, players just have to keep in mind there are times they have to manage that task, and forego a shot with a gun arc, if required.

    So, as you say, Karl, consistency or convention would not have the Bombardier position represented. Even if there is a skill in the mix.

    I'll see about adjusting the card.
    Well, if the bombardier uses a gun also, marking that position with the bomb reminds the players that you can't shoot while dropping
    If you want some more realistic chrome (or dirt), say he's busy 2 or 3 cards before dropping.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  34. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Well, if the bombardier uses a gun also, marking that position with the bomb reminds the players that you can't shoot while dropping
    If you want some more realistic chrome (or dirt), say he's busy 2 or 3 cards before dropping.
    Karl
    Using the B-17, among others, Ares didn't do that, as you pointed out. Andrea did mention that non-combat crew were left off management cards, or at least that was where they planned to go. So, radiomen, flight engineers, and other aircrew were not shown. To date, that has meant double-tasked crew only showed their gunnery/pilot positions. And only on the Zeppelin management card, IIRC, is the pilot/engineer mixed task icon used.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  35. #85

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    In case of hit of navigator you have to roll D6 and change the gaming table to another WWII game in case of 4 or 5 result (not nocessary WoG). In case of rolling 6 you must fly to WGF table and watch The Final Countdown movie next evening.

    Sorry for offtopic, I just couldn't resist

  36. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    In case of hit of navigator you have to roll D6 and change the gaming table to another WWII game in case of 4 or 5 result (not nocessary WoG). In case of rolling 6 you must fly to WGF table and watch The Final Countdown movie next evening.

    Sorry for offtopic, I just couldn't resist
    Click image for larger version. 

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    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  37. #87

  38. #88
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 12-03-2022 at 22:29.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  39. #89
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  40. #90
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

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