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Thread: Is Wings of War/Glory an Italian game?

  1. #1

    Default Is Wings of War/Glory an Italian game?

    Professor Marco Arnaudo from Indiana University says “no”:

    https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.15...naleFinale.pdf

  2. #2

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    Italian does not mean bad
    Checked few paragraphs, I am going to finish it later

  3. #3

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    "Renzo & Lucia al festival di Sanremo, presentano Dante & Lucrezia" would be an italian theme for a game... :-)

    Apart from US/british game style and german/euro style what other culturally identifiable game styles are out there? French style? Japanese style? Latin style? Russian style?

  4. #4

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    As fate would have it, I visited a FLGS that used to host open gaming. Social distancing and having a lending library of games that can't be sanitized between customers is having adverse affects on the business. So, they are reducing their non-virus friendly stock. I found a copy of Wings of War that I was very sure nobody else in our small town would want, and I could provide some cash to the business.

    When I got it home and did an inventory on the contents, I discovered that it is an original Nexus printing! It even has "Made in Italy" printed on the box.

    So, not an Italian game? Interesting.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    ...
    Russian style?
    Burn all meeples and then explain they were traitors?

  6. #6

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    Hmmm... Lots of words. What makes a game Italian? What would Wings of War/Glory have had to contain that would make it 'Italian'? Themed and situated only in Italy?

    As a game of Aerial Combat, covering world conflicts, is the game(s) identifiable as particularly any nationality? Wings of War, when originally produced, IMHO, was unique in its simplicity and ease of play. It represented dogfighting in quick and reactive gameplay that I had not seen in any previous air combat game. That is what made me fall so in love with this game, and want to share it with others. It falls into that category that I call a "Beer and Pretzles" game (one played very casually, not requiring deep thinking and rule-referencing, for fun instead of competition.), but is expandable and can have as much depth added as desired, allowing it to be nearly a combat simulation.

    So, by the way the author presents his arguments, perhaps not an 'Italian' game? But, what game of world conflict, designed anywhere, would be identifiable by a nationality, unless the designer went out of their way to skew the theme?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

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    Hmmm... Lots of words. Yes, and quite a bit of navel-gazing.

    I wonder if Prof. Arnaudo is too young to remember International Team wargames from the 1980s. The Italian company International Team did much to popularize board wargaming beyond the Anglosphere, publishing a series of colorful titles with multi-lingual rule sets that sold well across Europe.

    IT games were expensive and not too common in the US, so I own only one of their games, Okinawa. Okinawa is typical of the series, featuring a heavy, over-sized cardboard box with an eye-catching 'graphic novel' style drawing on the cover. The box is heavy because it contains a big, colorful map printed on heavy cardboard and game counters to match, rather than the flimsy, drab paper map and thin counters that were typical of the era. IT's high production values doubtless drove up their costs.

    IT's high production values and multi-lingual marketing were a precursor of Eurogames, that branched off from military wargaming into a more social and familiy gaming atmosphere. Over time, those production values raised the bar for the entire gaming industry, wargaming included. I see those production values and quality components and multi-lingual marketing embodied in Wings of Glory, which takes an innovative approach to military wargaming.

    I don't know if this is a specifically Italian approach to gaming. Given that the market for Italian-language text is fairly small, it seems as though Italian businesses need to sell to other language pools.

  8. #8

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    I'm sorry, a game is either good on its own merits or it's not. Where it originates geographically has about as much relevance to those merits as what the players' usual preferred beverage is.

    This Professor Arnaudo gives the impression that he was either paid by the word or is a game nerd who wanted to parlay a hobby into points toward tenure, and yet... he has a point, and it's one in Ares's favor though I doubt he sees it as such. When you're part of a traditional "school" of design you tend to follow that school's "rules" even when it hinders gameplay and function, while the principles of Wings/Sails seem to me that they could be best described by the 1930s Art Deco philosophy of Henry Dreyfuss: "Form Follows Function." And that focus on function first makes a better game than any mere name on a box alone ever could.

    Now watch this, I'll bet he tries to give Ares some clapback over this post just because one of the research team hurt his little fee-fees... so many words with so little meaning behind them, like regrettably so many academic papers I read of late. If this is what academia is becoming, perhaps I really should target my career track on the museum rather than the classroom...
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  9. #9

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    The creators of the games are Italian. The company which produces and markets the games are Italian. Of course they are Italian games. However, they are tailored to largely appeal to their biggest potential market, which is the English speaking part of the world. That is good business sense.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    The creators of the games are Italian. The company which produces and markets the games are Italian. Of course they are Italian games. However, they are tailored to largely appeal to their biggest potential market, which is the English speaking part of the world. That is good business sense.
    That's the other thing about this guy, the rampant snobbery about "marketing to the masses, how declasse."
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  11. #11

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    Interesting reading, but after page 3 I lost interest when it starts to get anglo american...

    There are unique products/games that are indeed US (Axis&Allies, Fortress America), UK (Warhammer 40k) or German (Die Siedler). ...and don't forget Czech Games from Czech Republic or Portal Games from Poland that produce new and really inovative games.

    Same counts definitely for the Wings of Glory series and the War of the Ring that brought really innovative & new game mecanics to our world of tabletop and boardgame universe.

    Of course you can search for roots of everything, but this will bring us definitely back to the Roman Empire and the circle is closed again...

    Nexus & Ares Games enriched my gaming world. Maybe I'm too young (44) to see some connections to other earlier boardgames, but in my youth in a small village I had no possibilities, access or money to do so.

    The 100 Deutsche Mark I paid for A&A was my first step into the world of challenging Boardgames besides "Mensch ärgere Dich nicht" or the first Computer Games like "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe".


    Pay attention Andrea, maybe this is a first step to make you and Ares Games to pay license fees to Walt Disney.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  12. #12

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    You did well then Sven.
    I only got this far:-

    "In the tabletop games industry, something similar occurred when gifted German designers started developing a new philosophy of gaming in the 1908s and 1990s, challenging what up to then was an American dominance of the Western market."

    I was playing in the 70's and 80's. I can't speak for the rest of Europe, save that at the World Championships each year we had representatives from Germany, Holland, France USA, South Africa and even parts of Nottingham. At that time most of the Games and scenics Manufactures at the shows were British, and so were the rules books. Innovation was the driving force. You only need to look at the vast publications by Tabletop games to see this, and all this was at a time when Games Workshop was called Citadel Games and had a little workshop in Newark.(not the one in New Jersey either)

    I humbly suggest that Professor Arnaudo puts a little more rigour into his research before committing it to print.

    Rob.
    Last edited by Flying Officer Kyte; 11-03-2020 at 01:57.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  13. #13

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    Top of page 2 made me chuckle, the bit where he mentions the popularity of WoG being underlined by the 'release of new models each year'. I must have missed these. Other than that, the best that can be said of this paper is that it gave the Prof something to do during the first lockdown.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    ...
    There are unique products/games that are indeed US (Axis&Allies, Fortress America), UK (Warhammer 40k) or German (Die Siedler). ...and don't forget Czech Games from Czech Republic or Portal Games from Poland that produce new and really inovative games. ".
    ...
    Unfortunately, there is the only one (but very talented) author: Vlaada Chvatil. The rest is 2nd league at best.

  15. #15

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    im with diamondback, it doesnt matter where a game originates, it matters whether the game is good or not.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    im with diamondback, it doesnt matter where a game originates, it matters whether the game is good or not.
    I totally agree!!

  17. #17

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    im with diamondback, it doesnt matter where a game originates, it matters whether the game is good or not.
    I will "Third" that!

  18. #18

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    I could only skim the article, y'know, the TLDR style. But from what I got out of it, the author seems to be trying to distinguish "Italian" as a style of game design. And therefore, saying that somehow, WoW/WoG isn't it. Now, I will say that I could be wrong in my assessment of the paper, since I didn't read the whole thing.

    I've seen this sort of gatekeeping in other communities. I've never seen any real justification for it.

    I'm with the group that says don't worry about the label; if a game is fun to play, fills your time enjoyably, play it. Otherwise, get rid of it at a yard sale or eBay, or something like that.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenlizard View Post
    I could only skim the article, y'know, the TLDR style.
    I was definitely feeling that, but had too much time invested, so I finished the article.
    A complete waste of ink.
    Even virtual ink ...

  20. #20

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    What a load of pointless waffly guff!

    If that is the standard by which Professorships are given out, then I'm a multi-time Emeritus Super-professor!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    What a load of pointless waffly guff!

    If that is the standard by which Professorships are given out, then I'm a multi-time Emeritus Super-professor!
    Reminiscent of the sperm donor's modus operandi... "if you can't astonish them with acumen, either baffle them with bulls--t or bury them in it."
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Reminiscent of the sperm donor's modus operandi... "if you can't astonish them with acumen, either baffle them with bulls--t or bury them in it."
    Sounds more like a business proposal method, or the politician's regular speech method ')
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Sounds more like a business proposal method, or the politician's regular speech method ')
    Karl
    Sorry DB. I had to blue pencil that.
    Rob.

    EDIT: Just his words to live by every day that he blighted the world... (Better, Rob?)
    Last edited by Diamondback; 11-08-2020 at 13:22.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  24. #24

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    same here. his big motto was "fake it till you make it." and he never "made it".
    Last edited by Flying Officer Kyte; 11-06-2020 at 11:15.

  25. #25

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    Kind of like Tesla - Serbian, but World's. I really don't see purpose of this "it's not yours, it's X's" things. We all love this game, and we gladly play it. And we had luck to have our Italian friend Andrea who invented it.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I was definitely feeling that, but had too much time invested, so I finished the article.
    A complete waste of ink.
    Even virtual ink ...
    Wish I'd read this before I read that - that's a few minutes of my life I'll never get back !

    "He is wise who watches"



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