US Heavy "Balloon Buster" Vickers guns

[Horse4261]

Several years ago I shared a link to a YT video on a Maxim lMG 08/15 Zeppelin Gun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbt1_gyAPYY).

I just ran across another video from the same source, this time it is on the 11mm Vickers Balloon MG.

Gun Jesus from 'Forgotten Weapons' never fails with his videos. I hope others find this as informative and entertaining as I.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIsd...nG19mw&index=1

[flash]

Very interesting Troy, especially the use on a SPAD at the end.

[Honza]

This was described in the book on Frank Luke. We have played it like that in one Baloon busting scenario:
- Two of the airplanes are busters (secret), the rest are escort.
- The busters can only shoot with their standard machine gun on airplanes and they use the 11mm incendiary one only against the balloon.
- The escort aircraft doesn't attack the balloon at all.

It was fun.

[camelbeagle]

That was awesome!

[OldGuy59]

So, in game terms, this means that American SPADs would be firing "B" damage for planes, and "B" damage (incendiary special rules) for balloons?

[camelbeagle]

I like them as an A.

[OldGuy59]

I like them as an A.

I would, too. It would be an option for the pilot, I suspect, to fire one, or both, depending. However, as stated in the video, the 11mm gun would run out of ammo a lot quicker. Not sure about the size difference in the rounds and the ammo belt, but the capacity in the plane could reduce the number of rounds available by half for the 11mm.

PS: Trying to find info on this is hard. Everyone, book authors included, seems to think all SPAD XIIIs had two .303 Vickers MGs. This doesn't appear to be the case.

Link: www.theaerodrome.com - USAS SPAD XIII "Balloon Buster" Guns

PPS:
Photo of Rickenbacker in his plane, from the video:


I attempted to capture and enlarge to get a look at the bore sizes, but the image wasn't good enough, so I found a slightly better one (Source: Twitter.com - Erikhistorian - Rickenbacker.


Note: There are two red circles of equal size on the bores of the guns, and they look the same to me. So, both .303, or both 11mm.

[Honza]

So, in game terms, this means that American SPADs would be firing "B" damage for planes, and "B" damage (incendiary special rules) for balloons?

Yes. If they were captured having shot incendiary bullets at airplanes, they would be executed. They had to carry direct order papers on them once equipped with those guns, otherwise they would be again executed once captured just because the 11mm incendiary was installed on their airplane.

So in game terms "B" is the historically correct way for Americans.

The 11mm guns were not permanently installed - they would be swapped around with 0.303, depending on the mission.
Luke would use 1+1, maybe some other pilots had 2 elevens, i don't know.

[flash]

Though the B deck is not great note that a single deck has 2 fire damage cards compared to the single A deck's 1; if both decks are doubled up, as is oft the case, it does have a slight advantage for balloon busting.
To use it in game it may be helpful to limit the 11mils ammo - maybe a couple of bursts of ordinary (for defensive purposes) and half a dozen of incendiary for balloon busting. I suggest this as Coppens only carries the 11mm.

The two rounds in comparison are the top two in this image:



The 11mm is 43.9g, compared to the .303 at 28.6g, and has a wider cartridge.
https://vickersmg.blog/the-guns/ammunition/11x59r-gras/
https://vickersmg.blog/the-guns/ammunition/303-inch/

During World War I an incendiary round was manufactured to be fired from the cartridge for the balloon busting role.
The 11mm Vickers was adopted by the allies as a standard anti-balloon armament and used by both the British and French in this role until the end of the war, as well as other allies such as Belgium and the United States of America. Notable users include Belgium's leading fighter ace and the allies' champion balloon buster Willy Coppens, and America's two highest scoring fighter aces, Eddie Rickenbacker and Frank Luke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11%C3%9759mmR_Gras

[Honza]

Good point, B deck has 4 cards to set balloon on flames while incendiary, A deck just two.

[Naharaht]

There is another thread on the same subject here https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...t-Vickers-guns

[zenlizard]

Good point, B deck has 4 cards to set balloon on flames while incendiary, A deck just two.

If using the incendiary rules vs balloons, I count 9 vs 9 (not counting explosion in either case):
all cards with smoke, engine, or rudder special damage, and all cards causing 5 points of 'normal' damage, plus of course, the fire damage cards.

[Stumptonian]

Good point, B deck has 4 cards to set balloon on flames while incendiary, A deck just two.

This really shows the differences between the two decks. I have to wonder about the reasoning behind the assignment of special damage, especially where smoke and flame are concerned.

[Flying Helmut]

So, with incendiaries the probability of starting a balloon fire are slightly higher with twin guns than a single (9/35 against 9/44), which makes sense.

I noticed the flame & smoke disparity between the decks several years ago, and, since I've only used incendiaries once () in all that time, I have always gone balloon-busting with 'B' firing 2-seaters, to get in many more shots with higher chances to get a fire than with an 'A' firer.

[Honza]

So, with incendiaries the probability of starting a balloon fire are slightly higher with twin guns than a single (9/35 against 9/44), which makes sense.

I noticed the flame & smoke disparity between the decks several years ago, and, since I've only used incendiaries once () in all that time, I have always gone balloon-busting with 'B' firing 2-seaters, to get in many more shots with higher chances to get a fire than with an 'A' firer.

How did you get 9/35 and 9/44 Tim?

EDIT: got it, i forgot about all the special cases

[Flying Helmut]

Both '5' damage cards in the 'A' deck also count, as per Zenlizard's post #12 above

What do you mean by "first draw"?
As long as the two decks are being treated the same, as regards drawing and/or returning cards, the draw 'number' has no relevance.

[Honza]

I mean 9/35 probability applies just for the first draw. It really has no relevance here since you are comparing two decks. I was thinking aloud i guess.
Yea, we did play it wrong last time, we definitely didn't count all those extra cases ...