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Thread: US Heavy "Balloon Buster" Vickers guns

  1. #1

    Default US Heavy "Balloon Buster" Vickers guns

    Hi All,
    thought you might like this.
    https://youtu.be/fIsdE-2g2jM
    From "Forgotten Weapons", one of my favourite You Tube channels

    Lest we forget

  2. #2

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    Fascinating - thanks for posting the link.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  3. #3

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    cool link. sort of a poor mans .50 calibre.

  4. #4

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    That's brilliant, how many of those bad boys can I strap onto a Bristol? (answers from anyone other than Tim, whose teeth I can hear gnashing from here, lol)

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  5. #5

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    good film. what size where the Buckinghams?

  6. #6

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbiggles View Post
    Hi All,
    thought you might like this.
    https://youtu.be/fIsdE-2g2jM
    From "Forgotten Weapons", one of my favourite You Tube channels
    Great John. I just spotted this post after I had just put the same on the history forum. Stiill it won't do any harm to double head it. More chance for everyone to catch it.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  8. #8

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    There are no rules for an 11mm machine gun.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    There are no rules for an 11mm machine gun.
    Too big for an B, too small for a C. One A for each 11mm?
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  10. #10

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    Yes, I suppose so. Diamondback. On that basis, Eddie Rickenbacker's plane with one 11mm and one .303 machine guns would be AB.

  11. #11

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    OTOH, the A seems a bit overpowered. Might be the Least Worst option, though. 11mm is almost a .50, and IIRC in WGS A's are for .30/7mms and B .50s so it might work out.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    OTOH, the A seems a bit overpowered. Might be the Least Worst option, though. 11mm is almost a .50, and IIRC in WGS A's are for .30/7mms and B .50s so it might work out.
    WGF: "A" damage for dual MGs, "B" damage for single MGs. "C" damage for 37mm or AA guns. So, regardless of the size of the gun, and most were 7.92mm (.303), you go by how many bullets are flying at you.

    For planes like the S.E.5A, or Nieuport 17, where there were single synchronized guns, but over-wing single guns in some configurations, the "Jam" special damage discussion came up, which lead to the possibility of twin-gunned configurations and jams. Did both guns jam? Could you fire "B" damage while ignoring the other weapon, or continue to unjam one weapon while firing the second? All sorts of things were possible, but how do you want to play this?

    So, in a SPAD, configured with two weapons, and technically only allowed to shoot at planes with non-incendiary rounds, the pilot has to choose which gun(s) to shoot each time they fire. And if they aren't shooting at a balloon, it should be "B" damage for a plane fitted with one of each type of Vickers MGs. Now, based on that other forum, perhaps only one or two planes in a squadron would be outfitted with the mis-matched pair, and the 'escort' planes would all be twin .303s. The plane trying to take out the balloon would fire "A" damage at the balloon, and the 'escorts' would fire "A" damage at defending planes. I could so see this in a scenario.

    PS: From the other thread, I found this link to some information online:
    Link: www.theaerodrome.com - USAS SPAD XIII "Balloon Buster" Guns
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-07-2020 at 00:18.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    ... All sorts of things were possible, but how do you want to play this?...
    I've started playing the one gun jams option on twin mounts recently as the evidence would seem to support this as an option. I've played one gun jam on separate weapon systems such as the SE's for years as that's just logical. I allow firing of the other weapon but not firing & unjamming at the same time as that's non-sensical.
    For a plane fitted with both 7.7 & 11mm guns - using B against planes and A against balloons seems the way to go though it's worth noting that a single B deck has 2 fire damage cards compared to the single A deck's so does it have a slight advantage for balloon busting using a B deck, especially if decks are doubled up, as is often done.
    To use it in game it may be helpful to limit the 11mils ammo - maybe a couple of bursts of ordinary (for defensive purposes) and half a dozen of incendiary for balloon busting. I suggest this as Coppens only carries the 11mm and this would keep him 'legal' against planes (and his gun is counted as a B...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    There are no rules for an 11mm machine gun.
    Certainly some things to think on and work out but not insurmountable. When using SE's and the like with separate weapon systems I tend to use the Lewis with the incendiaries & nominate which colour jam applies to it so when firing as A's against a balloon I can tell which weapon is jammed. The same can be applied to this set up.
    Last edited by flash; 10-07-2020 at 04:36.

    "He is wise who watches"

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I've started playing the one gun jams option on twin mounts recently as the evidence would seem to support this as an option. I've played one gun jam on separate weapon systems such as the SE's for years as that's just logical. I allow firing of the other weapon but not firing & unjamming at the same time as that's non-sensical.
    For a plane fitted with both 7.7 & 11mm guns - using B against planes and A against balloons seems the way to go though it's worth noting that a single B deck has 2 fire damage cards compared to the single A deck's so does it have a slight advantage for balloon busting using a B deck, especially if decks are doubled up, as is often done.
    To use it in game it may be helpful to limit the 11mils ammo - maybe a couple of bursts of ordinary (for defensive purposes) and half a dozen of incendiary for balloon busting. I suggest this as Coppens only carries the 11mm and this would keep him 'legal' against planes (and his gun is counted as a B...)

    Certainly some things to think on and work out but not insurmountable. When using SE's and the like with separate weapon systems I tend to use the Lewis with the incendiaries & nominate which colour jam applies to it so when firing as A's against a balloon I can tell which weapon is jammed. The same can be applied to this set up.
    Good stuff, Dave.
    I think I would try to do the same.

    Only thing I would question is the change of ammunition type for the 11mm - the Vickers is belt-fed, so the pilot can't change ammo belts in flight; when it comes to ammo type for the 11mm in a game, it has to be either/or, not a selection from both types.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    ...Only thing I would question is the change of ammunition type for the 11mm - the Vickers is belt-fed, so the pilot can't change ammo belts in flight; when it comes to ammo type for the 11mm in a game, it has to be either/or, not a selection from both types.
    I wasn't suggesting switching ammo as you please to engage the pertinent targets as they come up, that's naff.
    The idea is that as it's a belt of ammo it can be loaded as you like - You could load a couple of bursts worth of ordinary up front followed by the hot shots and a burst worth at the end - or however you'd like to do it.
    That would, of course, require management before & during a game but that's not impossible to do. If you have problems inbound you can take on a defender, if you don't you can just shoot off the ball ammo before engaging the balloon with the hot stuff, or, use it in the attack as straight ammo, as you prefer. It just has to be accounted for.
    So, you could decide that the 11mm has an ammo capacity of eight - You could then load the belt how you like noting where those loads sit in the belt and declaring or showing what the shot is when used.

    "He is wise who watches"

  16. #16

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    i dont think there be a whole lot of damage output increase between 7/8mm and 11mm considering how fragile the aircraft already are. the big difference would be the incendiary nature on the rounds. i dont know how id handle it in game. of the top of my head, maybe make smoke and red jam special damage go straight to fire in the target a/c.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    i dont think there be a whole lot of damage output increase between 7/8mm and 11mm considering how fragile the aircraft already are. the big difference would be the incendiary nature on the rounds. i dont know how id handle it in game. of the top of my head, maybe make smoke and red jam special damage go straight to fire in the target a/c.
    It's already catered for in the rules Phil - incendiary v aircraft: smoke = fire; any five card = fire; engine damage = smoke.
    Of course for incendiary v balloons it's rudder, smoke, eng & five card = fire.

    "He is wise who watches"



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