Stats needed for Mitsubishi Ki-67 Hiryu Peggy

[abovetheclouds]

Two new planes added to my collection:

Mitsubishi Ki-67-Ia with a single 12.7mm Type 1 in nose, tail, and side blisters, plus a 20mm Ho-5 cannon in dorsal turret. Powered by two 1,900hp Mitsubishi Ha-104 engines.

Mitsubishi Ki-109 army heavy fighter interceptor variant of the Ki-67 with side blisters and dorsal turret removed. Armament: 75mm army type 88 anti-aircraft cannon in the nose and a single 12.7mm gun in tail.

I couldn't find any variants listed in the Unofficial Aircraft List. Would anyone care to have a go at gaming stats for these 2 Ki-67 variants? And then hopefully I can find someone interested in producing a card for these planes with the new stats.

[Jager]

Here you go:
An interesting plane.
Deck: Y. Hits: 30; ceiling: 10; Climb: 7 Base: bomber.
Guns: Ki-67-Ia: Nose gun: A/A, front arc. Left blister: A/A, 7-10 O'clock.
Right blister: A/A, 2-5 O'clock. Tail: A/A rear arc.
Dorsal gun: C/A, 3-9 O'clock, level to high w/ tail BS. Note: dorsal gun can elevate so that it can use
rear facing Schrage Musik rules.
Guns: Ki-109 (w/ 75mm): Delete dorsal and blister guns. 75mm arc is a straight line 12 O'clock.
Note: Only 22 made, and was not successful. IMO: the chances of a single-shot cannon hitting a flying target is very close to zero. Even a B-29 in formation.
From the History of War site article on the Ki-109:
{QUOTE]The 107th Heavy Fighter Regiment was formed in November 1944, and received its aircraft in 1945. The Ki-109 failed to live up to expectations. The production Ki-109-I lacked the speed and rate of climb to catch the high flying B-29s on their early daylight raids, and despite a number of attempted interceptions never actually made contact with a B-29 formation. Once the Americans switched to low level night-time raids the Ki-109, which lacked radar, became completely useless, and the 107th Heavy Fighter Regiment was disbanded on 30 July 1945.[/QUOTE]

Here's a 4-way view for Mike:

[hokusai]

75mm arc is a straight line 12 O'clock.

Interesting. Would this also be the way to go for the B25 and Piaggio P108A?

[OldGuy59]

Here you go:
An interesting plane.
Deck: Y. Hits: 30; ceiling: 10; Climb: 7 Base: bomber.
Guns: Ki-67-Ia: Nose gun: A/A, front arc. Left blister: A/A, 7-10 O'clock.
Right blister: A/A, 2-5 O'clock. Tail: A/A rear arc.
Dorsal gun: C/A, 3-9 O'clock w/ tail BS. Note: dorsal gun can elevate so that it can use
rear facing Schrage Musik rules.
Guns: Ki-109 (w/ 75mm): Delete dorsal and blister guns. 75mm arc is a straight line 12 O'clock.
Note: Only 22 made, and was not successful. IMO: the chances of a single-shot cannon hitting a flying target is very close to zero. Even a B-29 in formation.
From the History of War site article on the Ki-109:

The 107th Heavy Fighter Regiment was formed in November 1944, and received its aircraft in 1945. The Ki-109 failed to live up to expectations. The production Ki-109-I lacked the speed and rate of climb to catch the high flying B-29s on their early daylight raids, and despite a number of attempted interceptions never actually made contact with a B-29 formation. Once the Americans switched to low level night-time raids the Ki-109, which lacked radar, became completely useless, and the 107th Heavy Fighter Regiment was disbanded on 30 July 1945.

Here's a 4-way view for Mike:

Karl,
Thanks for the effort of posting a drawing. I'd hug you, but... COVID.

I already have that drawing, in slightly higher resolution, but it isn't good enough. Darn!

PS: I did find this drawing, which will be helpful with the Crew Managment card:

[OldGuy59]

This is cool. Too bad I can't read Japanese, but this is firing arcs, I'm sure:



PS: Or this alternate drawing:



Source: Aces High Bulletin Board - Re: KI-67 Update?

[Jager]

I did see that on line, but also a lot of commentary with pictures on drawing of the interior. Basically, to get to the extreme angles, the gunners can't really aim. Given that any shot forward of the 3-9 o'clock line is high only, and it's only 20 degrees either way, so not going to a full 2 or 10 o'clock position, not really worth the fussiness and confusion.

Interesting. Would this also be the way to go for the B25 and Piaggio P108A?

Yes, with the note that these weapons were not used against aircraft; strictly against ground targets.
Karl

[abovetheclouds]

Thanks Karl for the stats. I still find it a little strange that I could not find any cards on the Aerodrome site for the Ki-67-Ia. Even though it was a late war development, it seemed to be the best bomber that Japan developed and produced. Looking forward to what Mike can come up with for both versions of this plane. Since the Ki-109 was ineffective, I will probably only use it in late war suicide scenarios.

[OldGuy59]

Sad, but this composite of several drawings is the best I can do for this plane. The nose glazing is particularly intricate.

[OldGuy59]

This is not the best, but draft color scheme done:

[abovetheclouds]

It's taking shape nicely. As I add different Japanese planes to my WGS arsenal, I am amazed at their industrious "Flavor of the Month" aircraft development and production during the war. It is still fascinating to read about the development of any specific aircraft, such as what were it's strong points, and what were it's shortcomings, as well as, it's various production problems. And as I do my research, it makes me appreciate the research that you put into creating these cards for us. Thank you Mike for putting in the time and effort to help us enjoy this game more and more.

[abovetheclouds]

I still have my Ki-67-Ia and Ki-109 planes along with a couple of Y decks still on my workbench, so I thought I'd check for any further progress on cards for either of them.

[OldGuy59]

I still have my Ki-67-Ia and Ki-109 planes along with a couple of Y decks still on my workbench, so I thought I'd check for any further progress on cards for either of them.

Post images, and units?

[abovetheclouds]

Pics of Ki-67-Ia

[abovetheclouds]

And some pics of the Ki-109.

[OldGuy59]

And some pics of the Ki-109.

Absolutely no decent line drawings of the Ki.109 anywhere. Hmmm...

[OldGuy59]

Absolutely no decent line drawings of the Ki.109 anywhere. Hmmm...

And now I have this, with a bit of drawing and masking:

[abovetheclouds]

Your renderings of both versions look spot on!

[OldGuy59]

[abovetheclouds]

Excellent cards, Mike. And it does look like a nasty looking plane to fly against.

[Jager]

Excellent cards, Mike. And it does look like a nasty looking plane to fly against.

Not really; at worst, a couple of A damage draws unless you risk the C-stinger. Relatively fast for a medium bomber, though.
Karl

[OldGuy59]

Had to step out for a game of Frizbee Golf (Bio maintenance), so this was a bit slower being produced.




I put in the "D" damage chit, only because this was intended to shoot down bombers. You can house rule this as you please. Seriously limited ammo, with only 15 shots on board. And you could go with the house rule that measuring the range is a missed shot (expending ammo), if it is out of range.

Please note that the crew management card for the Ki.67 indicates that a crew member can move from position VI to position VII. I think this is a navigator or radio operator that is trained as a Wireless Air Gunner (WAG). The crew position diagram shows that the right waist gunner moved to the tail, and the WAG moved to the right waist gun. It also showed the copilot moving to the bombadier position, and the bombadier moving to the nose gun. So, there was lots of cross-trained crew on this plane. So, although not necessarily shown, the Ki.67 should be able to bomb effectively with the copilot, and the nose gun position manned.

PS: The nose gun on the Ki.109 was probably aimed and fired by the pilot, not the crew in the nose. That guy was probably just a loader. So, house rule, the nose gun can fire as long as the crew in the nose is not injured. If the crew is injured in a given phase, the nose gun can, at most, fire one more shot.

[abovetheclouds]

Thank you, Mike. I totally agree with all of your notes on both models, so I saved your notes, and printed them out to keep with the cards.

[OldGuy59]

[...]

PS: I did find this drawing, which will be helpful with the Crew Managment card:

[...]

[...]

Please note that the crew management card for the Ki.67 indicates that a crew member can move from position VI to position VII. I think this is a navigator or radio operator that is trained as a Wireless Air Gunner (WAG). The crew position diagram shows that the right waist gunner moved to the tail, and the WAG moved to the right waist gun. It also showed the copilot moving to the bombadier position, and the bombadier moving to the nose gun. So, there was lots of cross-trained crew on this plane. So, although not necessarily shown, the Ki.67 should be able to bomb effectively with the copilot, and the nose gun position manned.

[...]

Thank you, Mike. I totally agree with all of your notes on both models, so I saved your notes, and printed them out to keep with the cards.

The note on crew management for the Ki.67 is based on the above diagram. I am trying to figure out what the Japanese doctrine for air crew was. I vaguely remember reading that there was an Aircraft Commander on some larger planes, who was neither the pilot nor navigator. The image above indicates a crew member in the cockpit behind the pilot and WAG, but I don't read Japanese, so can't figure out what he is supposed to be doing. Perhaps the Aircraft Commander? On my Management Card, that extra person is in a gunnery position. Otherwise, the crew would only indicate seven combat essential positions, and there would be a requirement to move crew around to different gun positions to maintain combat effectiveness.