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Thread: Card and stats needed for Ki-46 Dinah, not Ki-45 Toryu (Nick)

  1. #1

    Default Card and stats needed for Ki-46 Dinah, not Ki-45 Toryu (Nick)

    I just ordered another Japanese plane to add to my collection that's not listed on the unofficial planes list, a Ki-45 Toryu. Any chance someone would kindly provide the gaming information for this plane, and hopefully I can find someone interested in creating a card to go along with it too. I would definitely appreciate the effort.


    Correction: I misidentified a Ki-46 Dinah as a Ki 45 Toryu. Need Ki-46 data instead.
    Last edited by abovetheclouds; 09-17-2020 at 20:16. Reason: My ignorance

  2. #2

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    The card is available in this thread :
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...l=1#post317607

    Resistance 18 - deck N - Firing BC/B A/A

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by monse; 09-30-2020 at 05:22.

  3. #3

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    So, you are looking for this?

    Ki-45 KAIa (ko/甲)
    Toryu: Two-seat fighter Type 2 of the army (Mark A) initial model of series, one 20 mm Ho-3 in ventral position, two Ho-103 12.7 mm in the nose and a flexible 7.92 mm in the back position.

    Unit and crew?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  4. #4

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    I did these back in JUN-2018, so somewhere in the threads.
    But here:
    Ki-45 Stats

    Deck N
    Damage 18
    Ceiling 11
    Climb 4
    Guns:
    Ki-45-KAIa C-B/B Rear: A/A
    Ki-45-KAIb C/A plus D ground attack only (manual loaded) Rear:A/A
    Ki-45-KAIc D/C plus C-C/C Schräge Musik
    Ki-45-KAId (anti-shipping) D-C-C/C-C; rear A/A

    Karl

    PS: hits changed to the RoD cards stats. Firing arcs to follow.
    Last edited by Jager; 09-20-2020 at 14:39. Reason: Data from the RoD thread
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  5. #5

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    This is the specific F-Toys model I have ordered, it is 2b if this helps.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by monse View Post
    The card is available in this thread :
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...l=1#post317607

    Resistance 18 - deck N - Firing BC/B A/A
    Thank you Monse, but It was kind of sad to read about the Rain of Destruction set that never materialized.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    So, you are looking for this?

    Ki-45 KAIa (ko/甲)
    Toryu: Two-seat fighter Type 2 of the army (Mark A) initial model of series, one 20 mm Ho-3 in ventral position, two Ho-103 12.7 mm in the nose and a flexible 7.92 mm in the back position.

    Unit and crew?
    Yes. I posted a picture of the actual model that I purchased. I hope that helps.

  8. #8

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    So, if I have the right color scheme, it should look a bit like this:

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    I can't find any reference images for the No.16 Independent Flight Team, which appears to be what F-Toys is saying the plane is representing. So, I couldn't find any pilots, either.

    PS: Types and marks for this plane are difficult for me to determine. The F-Toys designation for this plane is a Type III. So, the only thing I can find that relates to this is the following:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Source: www.themodellingnews.com - In-Boxed: 1/32nd scale Kawasaki Ki-45 "Kai Tei Toryu" (Nick) from Zoukei-Mura

    PPS: Another Source: www.wardrawings.be - Ki-45 KAIc/Ki.45 KAIc-Hei-Tei
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-17-2020 at 19:38.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by abovetheclouds View Post
    This is the specific F-Toys model I have ordered, it is 2b if this helps.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's a Mitsubishi Ki-46 Dinah, I'm afraid.
    No 2 of Vol2, not Vol3, is the Ki-45.

  10. #10

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    Just curious, what is the significance of the red suns in the large white boxes? I'm used to seeing, in my very minimal experience, the solid red suns, and the red suns with a white or yellow ring around it. This is the first time I have seen the large white box backgrounds.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by abovetheclouds View Post
    Just curious, what is the significance of the red suns in the large white boxes? I'm used to seeing, in my very minimal experience, the solid red suns, and the red suns with a white or yellow ring around it. This is the first time I have seen the large white box backgrounds.
    Looking up units for Ki-45s, and markings, I found that the white bands meant "Home Defence" planes. Not sure about that, though.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    That's a Mitsubishi Ki-46 Dinah, I'm afraid.
    No 2 of Vol2, not Vol3, is the Ki-45.
    ACK! My bad. My inexperience with Japanese aircraft is showing. Redirect!! I will search the files and threads for any updated Ki-46 Dinah cards. Thanks Zoe! I will eventually pick up a Ki-45 Toryu, so the information gathered in this thread will be applied when that time arrives.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Looking up units for Ki-45s, and markings, I found that the white bands meant "Home Defence" planes. Not sure about that, though.
    Ah, thanks Mike.

  14. #14

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    And I just found this drawing of a Mitsubishi Ki-46 Type III:

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    Note: Don't know if it is accurate, but I now have one I can use...

    PS: Darn, not the same as the "2b" plane above.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  15. #15

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    Found this, last night, before my internet was shut down by my provider for maintenance:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  16. #16

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    Ha! Our internet was down when we got up this morning. I was fortunate that our internet stayed functioning all day yesterday because I spent much of the day exploring and enjoying the Aerodrome site. I still enjoy learning anything and everything about aviation and aviation history.

    And now that I know that I'm expecting a Dinah instead of a Nick , I will now search for any current stats and gaming information for Dinah.

  17. #17

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    Aargh! The fuselage is not the same!

    This is the Type III Otsu/Hei cockpit, that appears similar to the F-Toy model:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-18-2020 at 14:27.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  18. #18

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    Let me talk a look this weekend.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Aargh! The fuselage is not the same!

    This is the Type III Otsu/Hei cockpit, that appears similar to the F-Toy model:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That looks definitely like the correct one. Here's a better picture of the particular F-toys model I'll be receiving.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  20. #20

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    I believe it is a Ki-46 III KAI with two 20mm cannons and a 37mm cannon in the nose. But I will leave that up to the experts.

  21. #21

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    OK. So now, I've started working on the wrong color scheme...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    16th Dokuritsu Hikotai, Japan, 1945
    [Edit: Redone with shading]

    You did say "2b" from the image in Post #5? That would have been the plane on the paper? The one without the white banding on the wings and fuselage, the way I interpreted it.

    Not a big deal, but are you sure you are getting the right plane?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-19-2020 at 10:35.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  22. #22

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    Just love these kits! 2 models in each kit, so small and delicate yet detailed! Meanwhile here's some box art, sorry the specs are in Japanese.

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    Didn't know I had these guys . . .

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by abovetheclouds View Post
    I believe it is a Ki-46 III KAI with two 20mm cannons and a 37mm cannon in the nose. But I will leave that up to the experts.
    I can only find armament listings with twin 20mm in the nose (represented in the drawing), and later night fighter versions with a Schragemusik 37mm cannon in the rear. The drawing I posted may have that cannon in the center of the fuselage, between the front and rear cockpits. The defensive 7.7mm MG would be removed, if the 37mm is installed.

    The image of the model you posted in Post #20 doesn't have the 37mm cannon, as far as I can tell.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    OK. So now, I've started working on the wrong color scheme...

    Attachment 292536
    16th Dokuritsu Hikotai, Japan, 1945

    You did say "2b" from the image in Post #5? That would have been the plane on the paper? The one without the white banding on the wings and fuselage, the way I interpreted it.

    Not a big deal, but are you sure you are getting the right plane?
    Good question. I double checked the listing. It is listed as 02-b, but the plane in the plastic is the one with the white boxes. Since the seller doesn't use stock photos in his listings, I believe I will be receiving the one in the picture with the red sun inside the white boxes. If it isn't, I will still use whichever card you create. And the twin 20 cannons as the only armament is perfectly fine with me. Thanks for all of your research.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by abovetheclouds View Post
    Good question. I double checked the listing. It is listed as 02-b, but the plane in the plastic is the one with the white boxes. Since the seller doesn't use stock photos in his listings, I believe I will be receiving the one in the picture with the red sun inside the white boxes. If it isn't, I will still use whichever card you create. And the twin 20 cannons as the only armament is perfectly fine with me. Thanks for all of your research.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    17th Dokuritsu Dai Shijugo Chutai, Japan, 1944-5
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  26. #26

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    That looks exactly right!
    I couldn't find any game stats listed anywhere on the Aerodrome site for the Ki-46. There probably in here somewhere, but I couldn't locate any. Hopefully Karl can come up with some to go along with your excellent artwork.

  27. #27

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    I'm taking a stab at stats.

    The gun damage is easy, as that is just the 2 20mm cannons on the front for CC/C, and the 7.7mm MG on the back for A/A.

    Damage, as best I can determine, could be around 20.

    With a listed top speed of 375mph/604kph, this is tougher. By wing span (and number of engines), I would think this would be on a Heavy Fighter base. That being said, the base is 68mm long, and the same as the Fighters. That would put it on an A deck? Perhaps without the Immelmann and the extreme side slips. Oh! And without the high speed long turn introduced for the Ares Spitfire.

    My musings anyway, and not to be considered, in any way, as Unofficial Stats.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    [Edit: Updated to match "N(18)" maneuver deck ('N' deck with increased arrows by 118%) for faster speed, as suggested in Post #34 below.]
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-23-2020 at 00:01.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  28. #28

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    At first glance, G deck though that might need tweaking to be less maneuverable. Damage 19 (18.4 but rounded up for twin engines). At an empty weight of 3.2 tons, this is a very lightly constructed aircraft.
    Last edited by Zoe Brain; 09-22-2020 at 21:07. Reason: Formula is 12+2×EWIT not 10+2×EWIT

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    At first glance, G deck though that might need tweaking to be less maneuverable. Damage 17 (16.4 but rounded up for twin engines). At an empty weight of 3.2 tons, this is a very lightly constructed aircraft.
    So, my math is messed up. 3.2 tons x 2 +12 = 16.4? Although I skipped that and went with the age of the plane as "Heavy Fighter 1938-39" at 20 (Don't know about armor, so I didn't minus the one).

    As to speed, there is the comments that it was fast enough to outrun fighters in the early war. Only shot down by a P-38 in '42 or a stripped down or Spitfire Mk.VIII in '44. So, anything slow wouldn't do, I think. Max speed was listed at 375 mph, with a cruise of 250mph. Was that not faster than a "G" deck?

    PS: There is a reason I'm not on the Stats Committee.

    PPS: The F Mk VIII's top speed was 408 mph (657 km/h)? No cruise listed in Wikipedia.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-20-2020 at 09:14.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    So, my math is messed up. 3.2 tons x 2 +12 = 16.4? Although I skipped that and went with the age of the plane as "Heavy Fighter 1938-39" at 20 (Don't know about armor, so I didn't minus the one).

    As to speed, there is the comments that it was fast enough to outrun fighters in the early war. Only shot down by a P-38 in '42 or a stripped down or Spitfire Mk.VIII in '44. So, anything slow wouldn't do, I think. Max speed was listed at 375 mph, with a cruise of 250mph. Was that not faster than a "G" deck?

    PS: There is a reason I'm not on the Stats Committee.

    PPS: The F Mk VIII's top speed was 408 mph (657 km/h)? No cruise listed in Wikipedia.
    Hmmm... My math wasn't messed up. I was being generous because of the speed. I've just read that the Ki-46 was very lightly armored and lacked self-sealing fuel tanks, which would make it more vulnerable, not less. Speed would be the only savior with this plane, so not getting hit is important. Depending on how the Unofficial Stats Committee figures, this plane might be a 16 or even 15 with the extra fire chits house rule.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  31. #31

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    OK here's what I came up with:
    Mitisubishi Ki-46 Dinah

    HF base

    Ki-46-I
    Deck: N deck; hits: 17; ceiling: 12; climb: 5 Guns: Rear gun: A/A rear arc (often deleted in the field).

    Ki-46-II
    Deck: N(110%) or Q***:{ no extreme side slips (make it a set of regular SSs) or 45 degree turns.} ; hits: 17; ceiling: 12; climb: 6 Guns: Rear gun: A/A rear arc (often deleted in the field).

    Ki-46-III
    Deck: N(118%) or O*** no 45 or 60 degree turns or extreme side slips (make it a set of regular SSs).
    hits: 18; ceiling: 12; climb: 7 Guns: Rear gun: A/A rear arc (often deleted in the field).

    Ki-46-III-KAI
    Deck: N(118%) or O*** no 45 or 60 degree turns or extreme side slips (make it a set of regular SSs).
    hits: 17; ceiling: 12; climb: 7 Guns: Forward: C-C/C Rear gun: D/C Schräge Musik.

    OK; the problem with the II and III models is that while we have decks for their fast speeds (Q and O respectively), those decks slow speeds are way too slow for this plane, making it too maneuverable.
    The best solution is to take a digital copy of the decks, and increase their length by 10 and 18% respectively. Not their widths!
    As a check, the N(110%) should have a fast straight of 6.6cm and the N(118%) should have a fast straight of 7.1cm.
    Possible, though complicated change is to use the N decks slow speeds, as needed by the plotting.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    OK here's what I came up with:
    Mitisubishi Ki-46 Dinah

    HF base

    Ki-46-I
    Deck: N deck; hits: 17; ceiling: 12; climb: 5 Guns: Rear gun: A/A rear arc (often deleted in the field).

    Ki-46-II
    Deck: N(110%) or Q***:{ no extreme side slips (make it a set of regular SSs) or 45 degree turns.} ; hits: 17; ceiling: 12; climb: 6 Guns: Rear gun: A/A rear arc (often deleted in the field).

    Ki-46-III
    Deck: N(118%) or O*** no 45 or 60 degree turns or extreme side slips (make it a set of regular SSs).
    hits: 18; ceiling: 12; climb: 7 Guns: Rear gun: A/A rear arc (often deleted in the field).

    Ki-46-III-KAI
    Deck: N(118%) or O*** no 45 or 60 degree turns or extreme side slips (make it a set of regular SSs).
    hits: 17; ceiling: 12; climb: 7 Guns: Forward: C-C/C Rear gun: D/C Schräge Musik.

    OK; the problem with the II and III models is that while we have decks for their fast speeds (Q and O respectively), those decks slow speeds are way too slow for this plane, making it too maneuverable.
    The best solution is to take a digital copy of the decks, and increase their length by 10 and 18% respectively. Not their widths!
    As a check, the N(110%) should have a fast straight of 6.6cm and the N(118%) should have a fast straight of 7.1cm.
    Possible, though complicated change is to use the N decks slow speeds, as needed by the plotting.

    Karl
    Being that I did the MATES WWII decks (and still have to do the new decks), I could add this to my list? What do we want to call them? "N+" and "N++"?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Being that I did the MATES WWII decks (and still have to do the new decks), I could add this to my list? What do we want to call them? "N+" and "N++"?
    Hmmm... My "N" MATES WWII cards show arrows the length of the card. If I increase the lengths, I'd have to increase the cards to Large format.

    PS: Karl,
    Could you give me the numbers of the arrows on the "N" deck (MATES WWII cards) you want me to use for the slow speeds, and the numbers of the arrows on the "O" deck for the fast speeds? I can combine them into a specific deck for the Ki-46. If some arrows need to be modified, I can ensure the arrows are the right lengths.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-20-2020 at 15:26.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Hmmm... My "N" MATES WWII cards show arrows the length of the card. If I increase the lengths, I'd have to increase the cards to Large format.

    PS: Karl,
    Could you give me the numbers of the arrows on the "N" deck (MATES WWII cards) you want me to use for the slow speeds, and the numbers of the arrows on the "O" deck for the fast speeds? I can combine them into a specific deck for the Ki-46. If some arrows need to be modified, I can ensure the arrows are the right lengths.
    Both Q and O decks are fast fighters, so yes they will be a fast card size. N+ and N++ work; though it might get confusing if we do this more (hopeing not. I used the % to indicate how much bigger to make the cards.
    THe N+ should have slow arrows 5.3cm long. The N++ slows should be 5.7cm.
    Both should have 2 straights, 2 left 30 turns, 2 right 30 turns and 2 side slips with slow speeds.
    I honestly can't remember if the stall and climb arrows are the length of the low speed, or it's own short length

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  35. #35

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    First draft of the N(118%) card:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MATES <acronym title=WGS N(18)A_V2.jpg  Views: 41  Size: 40.7 KB  ID: 292786" class="thumbnail" style="float:CONFIG" />
    [Edit: Matched the Left Turn Arrows layout to the Right Turns. Repositioned the numbers.]

    Rather than "N++", I used "N(superscript 18)". Not that that is what we will eventually use. Also, I left the Immelmann Turn in, as that is on the Beaufighter deck, too. Critique away!

    PS: The Left Turns, Climb and Dive arrows are on the Second card, so they are missing. If the above draft is approved, I will complete the other maneuvers and post the complete MATES WWII set for the N(18) deck.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-25-2020 at 00:20.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  36. #36

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    Card in Post #27 above updated with Unoffical Stats Committee info. I also updated the firing arcs and some of the dots to match the Ki-45 card style.

    The card may change, based on comments in this thread. The "N(18)" name for the movement deck isn't necessarily final.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  37. #37

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    Thanks Mike. I've downloaded your excellent plane card. Looking forward to the official N(18) deck to go with it. And apparently my Ki-46 model is circling in a holding pattern somewhere within the U.S. Postal System.

    I really like the Mates maneuver cards. I had not seen them before now. I also discovered in your albums, some very nice labeling strips which included labels for the different booster sets. A couple of years ago, I discovered and downloaded Dan-Sam's strips. I have been using white-out and writing over those label strips for the newer WGF and WGS planes and decks. Will you be updating your set of strips to include the newer planes and decks?

  38. #38

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    Pending approval, this is the other card for the N(18) maneuver deck:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MATES <acronym title=WGS N(18)B.jpg  Views: 47  Size: 33.9 KB  ID: 292708" class="thumbnail" style="float:CONFIG" />
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  39. #39

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    Redid the N(18) A Card to match up the Left Turns to the Right Turns, and repositioned the numbers on the Left Turns.

    Waiting for USC to approve.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  40. #40

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    My F-toys Ki-46 finally made it through our new and improved slower U.S.P.S. system. I printed out your N(18) pending approval Mates cards to go with your excellent plane card. I'm ready to put it in flight. Thanks Mike! I greatly appreciate all of your effort.

  41. #41

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    OK, I printed N(18)A_V2 out, and it looks ok. Note I had to resize it to 84% for it to print to the correct size (3.5" long).
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    OK, I printed N(18)A_V2 out, and it looks ok. Note I had to resize it to 84% for it to print to the correct size (3.5" long).
    Karl
    Not responsible for what the 'drome site does to images when uploaded. They should be proportional, though. Do we wish to identify the deck differently, or stay with N(18)?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  43. #43

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    OK, I printed N(18)A_V2 out, and it looks ok. Note I had to resize it to 84% for it to print to the correct size (3.5" long).
    Karl
    Thank you Karl for the card size clarification. I had originally sized them to the standard small size card. Now that I have resized them to the 3.5" height, they fit perfectly in 63.5 x 88 card sleeves. Thanks to everybody that helped with the stats, the plane card, and the Mates cards. My Ki-46 is ready to fly!

  44. #44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Not responsible for what the 'drome site does to images when uploaded. They should be proportional, though. Do we wish to identify the deck differently, or stay with N(18)?
    Or my computer.....or Paint.....or ........
    We could call it N(Ki-45) since it's fairly specific, no?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus



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