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Thread: An interesting statement by col. Harald Hartney on Frank Luke.

  1. #1

    Default An interesting statement by col. Harald Hartney on Frank Luke.

    Harald Hartney was a commander of Frank Luke's squadron (27th).
    This comes from the book on Frank Luke "Terror of the Autumn skies".

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2

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    Would have been amazing if Frank Luke wasn't KIA when he was.

  3. #3

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    Well, one way to prove that is to paint one Spad XIII all red and have a duel.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by camelbeagle View Post
    Would have been amazing if Frank Luke wasn't KIA when he was.
    As MvR died 5 months before Luke and 2 months before he was assigned to 27th Aero sqn it would have been more than amazing Dan !

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    I have to wonder if the good Colonel had ever flown against MvR, or had know anyone who had.
    A really bold statement to make without first hand knowledge.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  6. #6

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    Hartney claimed he had been engaged and downed by MVR on Feb 14, 1917.

  7. #7

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    And yet MvR didn't claim him... or, any FE2 that day.. and wasn't flying an Albatros the aircraft that's said to have shot him down. He was in his Halberstadt.

    "He is wise who watches"

  8. #8

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    That was indeed cunning of MvR not to claim Harntney so to support Hartney's claim Luke would down MvR.

  9. #9

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    That might have been be a bit difficult for Luke - when Hartney was shot down he was still a Canadian and he was serving with the RFC... moreover the USA wasn't in the war, Luke hadn't enlisted, nor been trained as a pilot !

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    I bet however, Luke would collect more tarantulas than MvR.

  11. #11

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    I mean, Luke was a balloon buster, he was a completist, with signs of being a "positive psychopath". That was enough to face 200 squadrons of D.VII with no fear. It wasn't just enough to outmaneuver and down MvR.
    Last edited by Honza; 08-15-2020 at 04:48.

  12. #12

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    Luke had 19 victories in a very short period, I think just one month, while MvR was in action a lot longer.
    Also a number of MvR's victories were against the mighty BE2 an aircraft that a strong cross wind could bring down.

  13. #13

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    We will never know will we.

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old guy View Post
    Luke had 19 victories in a very short period, I think just one month, while MvR was in action a lot longer.
    Also a number of MvR's victories were against the mighty BE2 an aircraft that a strong cross wind could bring down.
    14 balloons and 4 planes in 8 days, and 10 sorties, according to Wiki.
    Now, balloon busting was difficult and dangerous, but that's a bit different than dogfighting.
    Was he a dangerous opponent, sure. A expert air to air fighter? Not sure.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  15. #15

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    The BE2 accounted for a lot of the German kills in the earlier parts of the war. Even with that, Manfred was a very skilled pilot. In my opinion, when he took the head wound something in his head got damaged and he wasn't the same. It would be an interested battle of the two in their primes. Sounds like a History Channel special! What If!

  16. #16

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    Just goes to show that brash sweeping statements about unproven, and unprovable, theoreticals are good for absolutely nothing.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Just goes to show that brash sweeping statements about unproven, and unprovable, theoreticals are good for absolutely nothing.
    True, but they are good topics for hobbyists to talk about and have fun.
    Last edited by Honza; 08-16-2020 at 06:57.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    True, but they are good topics for hobbyists to talk about and have fun.
    Esp. if beer is available
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  19. #19

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    What special ability cards do you guys use when playing as MVR or Luke?

  20. #20

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    I don't tend to play as a particular pilot or use ace skills much at all Gary but if I did, for this mythical encounter, I'd play them to the max of their abilities.
    I've skill cards to level 5 (mar 1917) for MvR: Acrobatic Pilot; Daredevil; Itchy Trigger Finger; Sniper; Super Ace. (he should have a couple more by 1918)
    Skill cards for Luke: Sniper;Perfect Aim. (arguably he'd should have Balloon Buster too)

    "He is wise who watches"

  21. #21

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    As a game recreation, this could go either way. Even with ace skills, the random damage draws, and a random Boom Card, make a 'scientific' analysis problematic.

    The random decks is one reason I want to trial modified Ace Damage decks in a campaign. The more ace skills a pilot has, the fewer zeros in the deck. MvR, at his height, would have had, in my house rule, only three zeros, And few ones, as well.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  22. #22

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    Mike, i was joking, sure the game recreation would prove nothing, but it would be fun.
    If you wanna a fairly well done simulation of WW1 air combat game, go for Canvas Eagles. To down and aircraft there feels like a real achievement.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Mike, i was joking, sure the game recreation would prove nothing, but fun.
    It would be fun to try. Not saying that putting planes on the table wouldn't be fun. It is just my opinion that the randomness of damage assignment does not favor 'aces'.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    It is just my opinion that the randomness of damage assignment does not favor 'aces'.
    Lucky Pilot and Sniper can make quite a difference to the damage draws.

    I like your concept of modified ace decks, although I am sure some would say "everyone has a bad day occasionally".

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    As a game recreation, this could go either way. Even with ace skills, the random damage draws, and a random Boom Card, make a 'scientific' analysis problematic.

    The random decks is one reason I want to trial modified Ace Damage decks in a campaign. The more ace skills a pilot has, the fewer zeros in the deck. MvR, at his height, would have had, in my house rule, only three zeros, And few ones, as well.
    Good idea. Where is your house rule? Do you have a table of reduction you could share with us please?

  26. #26

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    Good idea. Where is your house rule? Do you have a table of reduction you could share with us please?
    Off topic, but I can't find where I posted this previously.

    This is in very hap-hazard play-testing, and we haven't really gotten past Veteran Pilots, so far. All that to say I have no idea what this will do to the game, except make Elite Pilots very nasty, and the fun factor may just go away, if Rookies and Veterans have to fly against Elite pilots.

    Gaining Experience (Comox Valley Gaming Group - Optional)
    For the current campaign, players will start with one Veteran and one Rookie. The Veteran will have one Ace Skill (chosen by player, but only basic level Ace skills).

    Rookies
    Rookies will follow the Wings of Glory Optional Rules, and progress using the WGS “Rookies in a Campaign” Rules. Each Rookie crewman keeps his status until he achieves one of the following:
    - he personally hits targets (airplanes, troops, AA guns, etc…) a total of 5 times; Note: Target draws damage cards, even if they are "0"s.
    - he personally shoots down a plane;
    - his plane successfully completes a mission where it must hit one or more ground targets, or take pictures of it;
    - he survives through his third game.
    Starting the next game, he is considered to be a Veteran.

    Veterans
    Any pilot not a Rookie is a Veteran. Veterans are subject to all normal rules. After 5 Victories, they are able to select an Ace skill. Veterans cannot select the Super Ace skill, nor any Level II skill. On acquiring five Ace skills, the Veteran becomes a Class Three Elite.

    Elite Crews
    Elite crews are pilots or observers with five or more Ace skills. Only Elite individuals can select the Super Ace skill (meaning they can select it only on attaining their sixth Ace skill or later), or Level II skills.

    Elite Crews are divided into three Classes:
    - Class Three Elite: Any crew having five or more Ace skills is a Class Three Elite. Class Three Elites use damage decks with four Zero cards removed (Special Damage cards must remain in the deck). Upon achieving 11 Ace skills, the pilot is elevated to Class Two.

    - Class Two Elite: Any crew having eleven or more Ace skills is a Class Two Elite. Class Two Elites use damage decks with all but three Zero cards removed (Special Damage cards must remain in the deck). Upon achieving 15 Ace skills, the pilot is elevated to Class One.

    - Class One Elite: Any crew having fifteen or more Ace skills is a Class One Elite. Class One Elites use damage decks with all but three Zero cards removed, and all but three One cards removed (Special Damage cards must remain in the deck).

    There are no additional experience ranks above Class One Elite.


    The above rules are not fixed, and can be modified to fit any campaign. Although it suggests starting with two pilots, we abandoned that right away and went with a roster of 12 pilots. On that roster we had a few Veterans and a bunch of Rookies, no Elites.

    We haven't sorted out what Level II skills are, except loosely considering using the Over The Trenches Campaign Skill rules. There are levels in that. Things that let a pilot do more than one thing at a time could be considered, although Andrea allows that an Ace can combine skills like Perfect Aim and Sharp Eye at the same time (Two cards of damage at long range as if the pilot was firing at short range, and adding an immediate +1 damage to each card). Yup, that is within the current rules, not a house rule.

    Do this with extreme caution, and with veteran players. Don't use these rules with new players, please.

    PS: Looking through the A and B damage decks, the above was created using the A deck. The B deck is a bit different, and needs separate amendment.

    A Damage Deck:
    11 "0"s with two Gun Jam Special Damage cards; and
    7 "1"s with two Rudder Jam Special Damage cards.

    B Damage Deck:
    17 "0"s with four Gun Jam Special Damage cards; and
    12 "1"s with two Gun Jam, two Rudder Jam, one Fire, one Smoke, and one Pilot Wound Special Damage.

    B Damage Deck Adjustment Proposal:
    Class Three Elite: Remove 5 "0" cards (do not remove any Special Damage cards);
    Class Two Elite: Remove all non-Special Damage "0" cards;
    Class One Elite: Remove all non-Special Damage "0" and "1" cards.

    Players are free to amend the above as they see fit.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-18-2020 at 21:40.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59



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