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Thread: Cannon and Immemann

  1. #1

    Question Cannon and Immemann

    If a pilot fires his cannon after a straight maneuver, with an Immelmann planned for the next maneuver, is that considered an illegal maneuver when revealed?

    I'm assuming one should not choose to fire a cannon knowing an Immelmann is pending:

    Cards played at beginning of turn: straight, Immelmann, straight
    Cannon fired: now straight (completed), stall, Immelmann; first card next turn: straight.

    When the Immelmann is revealed, is it illegal, meaning replace with a straight and take an A damage?

  2. #2

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    If you are using altitude it could be turned into a Split-S instead of an Immelmann. Hope you have the altitude to do this without hitting the ground!

    If you are not using altitude and/or Split-S maneuver, I think the pilot would be busy with his maneuver and not be able to fire the cannon. He should take the penalty if he did fire it just before the Immelmann. My 2 cents worth.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    If you are using altitude it could be turned into a Split-S instead of an Immelmann. Hope you have the altitude to do this without hitting the ground!

    If you are not using altitude and/or Split-S maneuver, I think the pilot would be busy with his maneuver and not be able to fire the cannon. He should take the penalty if he did fire it just before the Immelmann. My 2 cents worth.
    What he said!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by anserron View Post
    If a pilot fires his cannon after a straight maneuver, with an Immelmann planned for the next maneuver, is that considered an illegal maneuver when revealed?
    I'm assuming one should not choose to fire a cannon knowing an Immelmann is pending:
    Cards played at beginning of turn: straight, Immelmann, straight
    Cannon fired: now straight (completed), stall, Immelmann; first card next turn: straight.
    When the Immelmann is revealed, is it illegal, meaning replace with a straight and take an A damage?


    Hi Ron - The stall represents the loss of forward momentum as an affect of firing the cannon and is not regarded as a steep manoeuvre.
    It cannot be regarded as the opening manoeuvre of a Split-S either.
    The loss of momentum will prevent you being able to execute the Immelmann as the next card, however the TnT rules clearly state:
    "After each cannon shot the airplane must insert a stall as it's next move and shift all the other planned moves forward"
    So in the given example you should end up with this:
    Cards planned: straight, Immelmann, straight
    Cards played: Straight + Cannon fired; (now) stall; Straight (as you can't Immel off the stall)

    If you still intend to reverse: first cards next turn = Immelmann; straight; + whatever (so a double sideways shift)

    There is no penalty or illegal move caused.

    Welcome on your first sortie on the 'drome after 5 years membership !
    Last edited by flash; 08-12-2020 at 00:34.

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  5. #5

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    Ah ha! As I haven't yet flown a cannon armed plane so I should have re-read the rules....again! Where are those darned rules?

    With adding a non-steep stall as your next movement card and shifting the plotted maneuvers forward you are still allowed to Immelmann, but with a delay of the added non-steep stall.
    Is the 3rd plotted card now shifted to become the 1st card of the next turn? If not, then you could change your mind about the plotted Immelmann if it would shift beyond the current turn.

  6. #6

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    This is one of the reasons I prefer giving planes additional weapons rather than skills in T&T. Cannons, rockets, and anchor and chain offer more difficult choices for planes like the tripods.

  7. #7

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    Thanks, all for the responses. I am somewhat surprised that some of the replies suggest I can replace a played card with a different card (inserting another straight or replacing the Immelmann card.) I thought the rules just allowed for slipping the played card one slot later. Am I allowed to replace a card or insert another card in the mix after inserting the stall?

  8. #8

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    One of the hazards of rule writing in stages (although nowhere near as tricky as some examples). I can see why the stall is I sorted bug perhaps given the nature of the game system it's a piece of chrome too far. Perhaps some official examples of play would be useful?

  9. #9

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    Ron, my understanding of the rules and what people have said above is as follows:

    The normal thing to do after firing the cannon is to insert the 'stall' card as the next move (not as a real stall but to represent a move forward at reduced velocity because of the cannon's recoil) and move any planned moves to one slot later. This may involve pushing moves into the following turn.

    However, in the special case of the Immelmann turn, people are saying that it does not make sense to allow the Immelmann turn take place following the 'stall' card since the plane would not have the physical momentum to carry it out because it had slowed down (It also technically breaks the Immelmann turn rules about playing straight-Immelmann-straight as a 3 move combination and it does not qualify as a Split-S, which requires stall-Immelmann-straight, since the 'stall' card used after firing the cannon is not actually being used as a normal stall card. ).

    The usual penalty for an illegal move is to replace the illegal card with a straight and draw a damage card. However, rather than do that, it is suggested that a straight be inserted so that the Immelmann turn may be carried out two moves later than originally intended.

  10. #10

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    My take on it at the moment is that , since the RAW don't discuss modifying Immelmanns or other manoeuvres, and only state that a "stall" is placed in the sequence, that the play of cards is not changed further, that the Immelmann as the cards were placed is the method of play as the writer intended. Maybe a question worth posing to Andrea on the Facebook forum though, he seems more active there than here and might well be happy to post his views.

    An interesting thought occurs - you can use the 37mm as an air brake if you think your next card was going to put you in a bad position. For example, you know you are going to overshoot and end up in front of an opponent, pop off the 37mm, slow down and avoid the pain. Somewhat akin to a WW1 version if "viffing"

  11. #11

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    I asked this question on the Ares Games 'Help' page:

    "On page 22 of the Tripods & Triplanes rulebook the rules for using a 37mm cannon are given.. Following firing the cannon a 'non-steep stall' card is inserted into the sequence of planned moves and the pilot takes 2 recovery counters to reload the cannon. It states that an Immelmann turn cannot be executed whilst reloading the cannon but what happens in the situation where the cannon is fired after the initial straight of a planned (i.e. cards already on the table) straight-Immelmann-straight combination? Does inserting the stall make the Immelmann an illegal move when it is played because it has not been preceded by a straight and incur a penalty? Can it be allowed as a 'Splt-S' manoeuvre even though it involved a non-steep stall? Can you please clarify this situation for me?"

    I have received this reply from Roberto Di Meglio

    "Hi David
    the most logical interpretation for me is that firing the cannon while attempting an Immelmann is a bad idea :-) and the maneuver becomes illegal, with appropriate consequences depending on the rules you play with.
    I also wrote to the designers and I will let you know if their interpretation differs.
    Thanks!"



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