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Thread: Two-seater formations

  1. #1

    Default Two-seater formations

    Hey all,

    Just wondering if anybody uses multiple two-seaters in formation in the game? Obviously in a real life bombing mission they would send more than one, but does anybody do it in the game?

    Just curious regarding the playability, with mutual defense and all that.

    Thanks,
    Max

  2. #2

    Karo7's Avatar
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    We played a bombing scenario with two DH4 and two F2B escorts against four D.VII. The Fokkers were completely outrunned by the two seaters. Next time we grant the Central Powers some ace skills. The attacking two seater formation in PC10 vs. the flamboyant scouts looked really cool.

  3. #3

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    It has been known Max...

    Sopwith Strutters - three two seaters as escorts for a pair of single seat bombers at the back - v - 4 Alb D.II's at Flight Club 10/19
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...ntoyment-Poole post#35


    This was a loong time ago - we cycled 9 tandems through this game - DH.4 & DH.9 v mainly Fokker D.VII. It was...bloody !
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...ngs+South+East

    We frequently fly flights of three together.

    "He is wise who watches"

  4. #4

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    Sigh. Now I have to buy more two seaters...

  5. #5

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    We ran this mission @ Doncaster in 2019

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...-of-the-Giants

    Chris (Boney10) ran this game @ "Triples" in Sheffield in 2014

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/al...hmentid=133421

    and I followed with this game

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/al...hmentid=133447

    @ the same event.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  6. #6

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    Formation flying is difficult even if one player flies all the machines or you have a good signalling system.

  7. #7

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    @Tim: your Doncaster report sounds identical to our scenario. The scouts had one opportunity to fire on the attackers and lost the contact afterwards. The scenario therefore wasn't satisfying for the participants. As you mentioned, the balancing is very difficult to achieve. Maybe there should be a heavy AA curtain, ace skills for improved agility and a attacker defender ratio of 1:2, to even the forces.

  8. #8

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    I use a diamond formation that reduces chance of collision.
    Lead ship at altitude X.
    2 ships behind, bases touching each other at the sides, front edge to rear of lead ship base, one at X-1 the other at X+1.
    Last ship front edge touching rear edge of middle two ships, at altitude X again.

    This is basically the same as a WW2 bomber box.

    When using historical scenarios, I use a V formation, alternating heights 0,+1,0,-1,0,+1 with bases touching at the corners. This approximates the actual bomber formations used by Gothas, DH4s, Br14s etc from 1916-1918.

    Here is a similar formation, heights +2,+1,0,+1,+2 from the 1920's.


  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Formation flying is difficult even if one player flies all the machines or you have a good signalling system.
    Not really, you just have to make adjustments/allowances to accommodate the idea as WoG simply isn't designed to do it.
    If individuals are flying each tandem then you need to have a briefing and agree to only use straights and sideslips (as most games are straight up the table) until the final run in to target or the nominated flight leader calls a break.
    If you're running all the models in a formation you can do the same, or, you can use one deck on the lead plane and the others hold position to suit. This means the outer models will move faster/slower making shorter/longer turns than manoeuvre decks would allow but is in the spirit of what the formation is trying to achieve.
    I use this as my template for flight set up, particularly for the latter
    Name:  V Formation Flying 2.jpg
Views: 159
Size:  72.9 KB

    I have tried both methods in large games and they both work well. It allows me to provide a target rich environment for multiple scout pilots and give myself a challenge of surviving their attack !
    For example - In my images above the Sopwith escorts were flown by individuals, I ran the bombers. I flew all the DH.4's in formations of three in the second image..

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Formation flying is difficult even if one player flies all the machines or you have a good signalling system.
    You can achieve it by having the lead player use 2 straights, then a different card for the third-and-last.

    The other players see what he did, then plan the next turn to match him (ie "second row" start with a duplicate of the leader's final card; "third row" plot to play the duplicate when they reach the approximate point where the leader played it...……..

    This way, the whole formation plays "follow the leader" with an increasing time delay the further back the trailing planes are.

    So long as only straights are played, in addition to the "special", every plane will play 2 straights and one "special" each turn, but probably in a different order.
    When the leader signals "independent action", probably by signal flare, then it's every man for himself!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  11. #11

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    When I made my comment, I was thinking of formation turns and forming a defensive circle.

    You could make a house rule to slow the bombers down, such as "When loaded with bombs an aeroplane must play a stall move each turn.".

  12. #12

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    I would like to try a scenario with a German A.E.G. G.II 'heavy gunner' escorting two or more German two-seater bombers. This was done in 1915-1916.
    So how many books are in your personal library?

  13. #13

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    Roland C.II single gun bombers often had Roland C.II 2-gun "outriders" flying escort.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karo7 View Post
    @Tim: your Doncaster report sounds identical to our scenario. The scouts had one opportunity to fire on the attackers and lost the contact afterwards. The scenario therefore wasn't satisfying for the participants. As you mentioned, the balancing is very difficult to achieve. Maybe there should be a heavy AA curtain, ace skills for improved agility and a attacker defender ratio of 1:2, to even the forces.
    This is exactly my concern, the playability and enjoyment of it. It sounds like if a bomber formation is used, then the defenders need some advantages in order to keep it fun

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMad17 View Post
    This is exactly my concern, the playability and enjoyment of it. It sounds like if a bomber formation is used, then the defenders need some advantages in order to keep it fun
    In my opinion the formation is negligible for the balance. The speed is the primary reason.

  16. #16

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    I often allow or even encourage players on the same side to develop at least a general plan before the game begins-it might work for the two-seater fliers to sit down and develop a more detailed plan.

  17. #17

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    I figure that all units enter a scenario in a formation (whether two-seaters or fighters), but those formations disintegrate a few seconds after combat is entered unless there's a reason to hold together. For instance, a line of planes attacking a balloon, where each is not only lining up for their shot but protecting the plane in front of them; a formation of bombers trying to keep their bomb spread; observations planes passing over targets; or a set of bombers and their escorts (e.g. Caudron R.4s or R.11s).

    Vee formations (when flying straight) are not only easy to hold, there are aerodynamic advantages to the following planes, as migrating birds well know.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karo7 View Post
    ...The scouts had one opportunity to fire on the attackers and lost the contact afterwards. The scenario therefore wasn't satisfying for the participants....
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMad17 View Post
    This is exactly my concern, the playability and enjoyment of it. It sounds like if a bomber formation is used, then the defenders need some advantages in order to keep it fun
    There are a couple of reasons for that - the pilots & the scenario planning.
    If the bombers are fast then anyone will struggle but, as David has mentioned, you can slow them down when loaded - either play a stall a turn, or, if you can, play the next speed deck down until they unload their eggs, that's the one we prefer.
    Scout pilot's need to be aware of their model's capabilities, or lack of them, as well as those of their enemy. If we're running head on I advise the pilots they should be planning a reversal, or, turning on first contact to stop them overshooting and losing touch with their targets. That can be difficult to judge. get it right and you can be in someone's blindspot - get it wrong you can be under the cosh - don't do it at all and you're out of it.
    Setting up attacks from the beam or bringing scout formations down the edge of a table helps alleviate this issue as often they are already turning when attacking and find it easier to follow the target round.
    If you can catch them you don't need more advantage than that, other than blindspots and +1's

    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    I figure that all units enter a scenario in a formation (whether two-seaters or fighters), but those formations disintegrate a few seconds after combat is entered unless there's a reason to hold together. ..
    They can be hard to hold together if flown by individuals that's for sure but easier for a pilot of multiples. With the DH.4 scenario I kept them in Vics to the bomb run. I'd worked out a method to get them into line astern using stalls and sideslips for the bombing runs over a set number of game turns. Still got shot to ribbons though

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMad17 View Post
    This is exactly my concern, the playability and enjoyment of it. It sounds like if a bomber formation is used, then the defenders need some advantages in order to keep it fun
    In the Doncaster scenario above, I timed the intercept perfectly (partly by luck!), sat below the blindspot and shot Naharat to pieces, so badly that he dived to try to break the one-way damage stream, and ended up at short range, with me in the blindspot, so still immune to retaliation. He then tried to turn out, but got caught again.
    If I had not received a BOOM card, and jammed my guns, I would have finished him, and still had Mike in range to tackle him next.

    If I had my second plane in company, it's entirely possible that neither of the first two bombers would have reached the target.

    Right up until the BOOM card, I was having a blast!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  20. #20

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    Thanks for the responses and thoughts; I think the slowing down of laden bombers makes a lot of sense and would help somewhat. I also like the idea of letting the interceptors respawn and return to the fight.

    I was also wondering about adding AAA guns. I believe in the rules as written they can only reach up to 6 - does that seem right? I believe that's only something like 7,000 ft...

  21. #21

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    Guns will complicate matters but depends what kind of game you want. We tend to use the solitaire rules as that is reasonably easy and quick to play, and is less personal as done on the draw of a card rather than placement of tokens by a player.
    Stick to the rules for AA & AAMG ranges is easiest for all but for interest the Ordnance QF 13 pounder Mk III anti-aircraft gun, also known as 13 pounder 6 cwt, as seen mounted on trucks, has the lowest max firing altitude of the British guns of 17,000 feet (5,200 m). I haven't seen the specs for many Hun guns but The Krupp 77mm Flak L/35 could throw one 13,000ft (4000m). Bottom line being the balloons (heights varied between 3,000 and 5,000 feet (1,000 and 1,500 metres) and aircraft will be well within range of dear old Archie !
    As for AAMG - effective range of a Vickers on the ground is 6500 feet (2000m), indirect fire is double that, so they too will be well within range in reality. It has been suggested that perhaps you should draw 2 damage cards & apply the lowest for targets at such altitude, or, use the same method for scoring a hit as used with the solitaire AA. ie draw a special damage on an A deck then pull the appropriate damage card for the MG.

    "He is wise who watches"

  22. #22

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    Yes, the maximum height of AA guns in WoG is very limited. But I guess this reflects the inferior accuracy and overall development status of this weapon class in WW1. You could force the bombers to go to a lower altitude for accurate bombing, to simulate, that there were only simple, if any, bomb sights.

    Much like the photo recon scenarios, where you have to be on altitude 1 for taking photos.



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