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Thread: Tunnel Machine Gun (Breguet BR14)

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    Default Tunnel Machine Gun (Breguet BR14)

    It doesn't say it, but is it reasonable and realistic to house rule if the tunnel machine gun gets jammed, it is jammed for good?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
    It doesn't say it, but is it reasonable and realistic to house rule if the tunnel machine gun gets jammed, it is jammed for good?
    Why? Is it reasonable and realistic that any guns on a plane could be permanently jammed? Actually, yes. And I suspect Andrea, the game designer, considered this with the rules. Because ammunition in the Great War was mass produced, with little thought of quality control, guns misfired all the time.

    Sometimes a bullet misfired because it didn't have any powder in the casing. This misfire would be easily ejected on cocking the gun. Worse was when they didn't have enough powder, and a bullet didn't get all the way out the barrel. The next bullet fired would hit the bullet stuck in the barrel, and warp the barrel. The third bullet would explode the barrel, and shrapnel would fly all over the place. Sometimes, the bullet was bent or misshapen, and would get stuck in the breach. This would require a full disassembly of the gun, and a machinist to fix, if at all. Some of these issues could be fixed quickly in the field (air), but most couldn't.

    So, for Wings of War/Glory, we have gun jams, but the game isn't over for the player. Most times in the Great War, the pilot having a misfire was out of combat, and tried to return to base as quickly as possible. Not much fun, game-wise.

    But, you can House Rule anything, if you want.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

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    Seems unreasonable to apply that rule to just one particular gun, Derrick, when it could apply to all.
    Research on how it's mounted - it may prove to be hard to get at.
    Last edited by flash; 06-20-2020 at 01:15.

    "He is wise who watches"

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    The description on the card makes it seem unreachable. It's under the plane. And it is a B gun.

    I'll research and see if people could get at it.

    Edit: nm, it is in the tail. It had to be unreachable. I can't imagine how they could get at that!
    Last edited by Derrick; 06-20-2020 at 03:21.

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    Now, I'm trying to figure out who fired it. The pilot or observer...

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
    The description on the card makes it seem unreachable. It's under the plane. And it is a B gun.
    I'll research and see if people could get at it.
    Edit: nm, it is in the tail. It had to be unreachable. I can't imagine how they could get at that!
    There is very little information about this - many books mention it but not in any great detail. It's a Lewis gun. One reference I've found (Profile 157 - The Breguet 14) says it fired through the floor of the fuselage behind the observers cockpit.
    Looking at a cutaway of a BR14 that makes some sense - it makes it reachable (though not easily I'd imagine) and usable by the gunner; as it's fixed he could operate it by means of a Bowden cable when he saw a target sliding in beneath the tail.




    The U.S. Air Service in World War I, Volume 1 - top of p359 - mentions: "Later a fixed tunnel gun was mounted in the fuselage to shoot under the tail as the enemy's favourite point of attack was the blind spot where he was screened from the observer's tourelle gun by the stabilizer"
    No further detail is given but that would support what is mentioned in the Profile publication.

    "He is wise who watches"

  7. #7

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    I could find only very limited information on the "extra" observer's gun. https://www.historynet.com/winged-wa...breguet-14.htm gives some detail, from which id does not seem to have been mounted in the tail, or unreachable by the observer. That being said, this source also doesn't say that the referenced gun was NOT mounted in the tail or beneath the fuselage in an unreachable manner.

    The game does already have some aircraft with official (though optional) rules about unreachable guns. Given all of this, I'd say house-ruling it is entirely up to you.

    ETA: I see Flash was working on this same time essentially I was. Thanks for that additional detail!

  8. #8

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    OK. So, if the tunnel gun is a Lewis gun, and unreachable (in the air by crew), there is another issue. Limited ammo. 47 or 97 rounds and then out of ammo, with no ability to reload. Somehow, I don't see that being useful.

    I could see the gun being mounted on a seriously limited movable mount, just behind the observer's position, where the gun could be serviced by the observer (aimed, reloaded, unjammed). I would suspect it wouldn't be very effective, except as a nasty surprise to the attacking pilot.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

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    Thank you to all.

    I saw somewhere it was in the tail. Which is contrary to what the card seemed to say. So it seems Ares was right about it being under the plane.

    I almost have how I want to rule this thing. Just one more thing. If it was done with a cable it is possible that the observer could shoot both his guns at once. And a real multi tasker could fire at two different planes at once. Do you think?

    So. Here is what I will rule so far.

    1. If it jams, it can be unjammed by observer.

    2. If the observer is unjamming either of his guns, neither can be fired (I researched rulings on unreachable guns on this site and discovered the reason why two guns jam at the same time is really just the pilot focusing on unjamming guns.)

    3. Observer dies, no guns out the back.

  10. #10

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    Personally, no, - No Way! no-one can shoot two differently-mounted unsynchronised guns simultaneously! And DEFINITELY not at two targets at once!

    Apply this to a WW2 multi-crew plane, and it instantly becomes ridiculous!

    These WW1 planes were wood and canvas, tied together by wires and buffeted by wind - just concentrating on not falling out must have been tricky!
    Firing the "underside" gun at a target in the plane's blind spot would be very hard to do, the observer judging carefully when the target is in the correct spot - especially with the limited ammo of a single Lewis drum (you simply can't afford to waste any bullets at all, because you can't reload!). He really shouldn't be thinking of anything else at the same time.

    Firing on a second target, with a different gun mount, at the same time would be utterly impossible.

    Jammed guns in a twin mounting is more complex than you suggested - one, or both, guns could jam, owing to different reasons (ammunition failures, synchronisation, cable-firing errors, trigger malfunctions).
    The 'Unreachable Guns' rule is not "the pilot focusing on unjamming guns" - he cannot physically reach the gun mechanism, even to touch it, so it cannot be unjammed! At all!

    So, in answer to your 3 points. personally I would say

    1) No, it cannot be unjammed

    2) Yes, if the observer is doing ANYTHING else (unjamming a gun, taking a phot, dropping a bomb) he can't shoot fire the underside gun

    3) Yes, if he's dead, all he can do is push up daisies
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
    ...I saw somewhere it was in the tail. Which is contrary to what the card seemed to say. So it seems Ares was right about it being under the plane...
    Tunnel Machine Gun:
    This airplane had a fixed machine gun under the fuselage pointed backward.
    If this rule is in use it can be fired as a B damage weapon against any plane at one ruler distance or less from the centre of the plane if the ruler passes through the rear side of the plane base to reach the target.
    The target takes one B damage at long range and two at short range.
    If the optional blind spot rule is in use ignore it for this weapon.
    If altitude rules are in use only targets at the same altitude can be hit.
    (s.4a WGF212C - Breguet BR.14 A2 (Stanley/Folger)
    I think this has been lost in translation a little. The rule says: This airplane had a fixed machine gun under the fuselage pointed backward.
    It would be a little better to say: This airplane had a fixed machine gun pointed backward under the fuselage.

    Your house rules are getting there.
    I'd say the gunner can only shoot one or other of his gun systems at a time, not both.

    I'd say he can reload/clear a jam in the tunnel gun - obviously he can't shoot his main weapons while doing this and, as he'd be head down to do so, I would say he wouldn't spot incoming threats from elsewhere whilst doing so, so cannot react to anything until that gun jam has been cleared. That may discourage that reload/clearing action while the enemy is about.

    I'd look at reducing the effect of the fixed tunnel gun as the gunner cannot aim it and track a target with it. Either give only 1 card to planes in the blindspot, or, pick two and give the lowest, or pick three and give the two lowest. Something along those lines.

    You could also limit it to two or three bursts. I think the idea is to discourage the enemy from being in the blindspot so two or three of long bursts fizzing past their ears might be enough do that.

    It's food for thought and required more thought than perhaps could be given on a card from Ares.
    Last edited by flash; 02-10-2021 at 07:12. Reason: add rule

    "He is wise who watches"

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    About the unreachable machine guns, I know they can't be unjammed. But the thread talks about what jams two guns and why imo after reading it, Ares way of just can't fire at all until after 3 turns is the easiest. But the point of all that is I think we agree if he is unjamming one he can't do anything else. Just made me realize that makes photo recon a little tougher.

    Good points on aiming. It is definitely out of the Aiming rule equation.

    One part that threw me:

    If it could be fired only one or the other, I would have written the card to only be used in the blindspot. Because who is passing up A guns for B guns, if he can only fire one?

    But the card treats it like a regular gun that has an arc of the rear (so not as wide as the twin guns) that ignores blindspot.

    Maybe I'll say one or the other, which would logically limit it to blindspot by the player. But I think weakened, it would not make the opponent think twice. I would still live in that blindspot all day. Well, if I was fresh, or actually knowing my luck with the explosion one card is enough lol.

    Edit: it also can only fire against same elevation, so that would be motivation to dip down below.
    Last edited by Derrick; 06-21-2020 at 06:35.

  13. #13

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    Clarity is needed, I think. What, exactly is meant by a 'tunnel gun'.

    Some Gotha bombers had tunnel guns. One example:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    When discussing any aircraft armament, weight, especially in WWI, is a big issue. The weight of a single gun, and the weight of any magazines (storage?), affected the performance of the plane. Speed, range, bomb load, maneuverability are all affected. Why didn't every plane carry multiple auto-cannons? Weight.

    So, the mounting of a tunnel gun in a bomber was a defensive/desperation decision, restricted by many factors, and having anything was deemed better than nothing. Limited ammo, limited arc, whatever, if you are being attacked, you want some defence.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59



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