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Thread: Red Blod Sky vs WoG WW2

  1. #1

    Default Red Blod Sky vs WoG WW2

    Questions about Red Blod Sky

    Cheers Y'all! I love WoG WW1 but its WW2 sibling never got a grip on me... so:

    Has anyone tried Red Blod Sky?

    Is it any good? Would you say that it is better than WoG WW2? It is my understanding that the mechanics are different, focusing more on squadron tactics and more abstract maneuver system... is it more realistic?

    Have anyone tried using RBSs miniatures in WoG WW2? (and vice-versa?)

    What about the minis? are they good quality? how do they compare against WoG WW2 ones?

    What about airplanes' availability?

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2

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    Hi Gallo Rojo

    I have no comments to make on the BRS game system

    Have anyone tried using RBSs miniatures in WoG WW2? (and vice-versa?)
    Four RBS boxes used to adapt planes into WoG system:

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    >> Me Bf 109 E-3 is very bad:
    nose too short and air intake under the hood resembling a 109-B-C; fuselage which rises too far behind the cockpit

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    >> Spitfire & Focke-Wulf are very very good

    >> F4U-Corsair is excellent (molded metal)

    See details:
    http://wingsofwar.1fr1.net/t2595-fro...wings-of-glory

  3. #3

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    Beautiful !

  4. #4

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    I agree with your discoveries. I too bought into the game initially but did not care for the game. The planes were marginal, not to scale dimensions and the plastics were soft and prone to warping. The metal versions are better, the Corsair is great, the Stuka not so much. I am interested in the Fw190, but have too many other interests at the moment to pursue it, one of these days . . .

  5. #5

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    Never played the game, but did some research on their models:

    Blood Red Skies - Spitfires

    Blood Red Skies - Bf.109s

    Interesting what they did with these planes...
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  6. #6

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    BRS Zeros are about 25% smaller then Ares'.

  7. #7

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    Personal opinion - and I appreciate others may not agree, particularly here

    The game BRS is streets ahead of WGS in almost every level - plays better, more planes (! - always a good thing) plays smoother, plays faster, feels more like a "dogfight". Also regular new models being added. Support from the manufacturer is ok if patchy, but better than Ares, community support is excellent (as is WGS here)

    Models. The first wave varied from ok (P51) to really bad (109E) but since then there has been a steady improvement. The original "bendy" plastic was not great and meant you got some strange bending on wings, Spitfires were particularly bad with this. They're now settled on a lightweight resin which is ok but a shame in some ways as the hard plastic 190s were about as good as it gets. The metal models are OK but are being replaced with resin and personally I would wait til that happens if you were tempted to buy any for BRS because the extra weight interferes with the tilting stands on BRS - theyre fine for WGS. Minus of course is unpainted, plus is you don't litter your playing area with broken bits of props etc as you do w WGS models. On balance the new BRS models are about on par or just below quality wise with AIM, with the exceptions of the hard plastic ones which are pretty damned good. They have a new designer who looks like he can hit the sweet spot but not seen any of the actual models yet.

    Rules were slightly overhauled for the Air Strike supplement which introduced air to ground attacks. There is a new Midway starter set but this has been delayed due to COVID. This has new A6M2s (hopefully in scale this time!) and Wildcats both in resin. Also planned are Vals, Kates, Dauntless and Devastators in resin but for "reasons" these may be in mixed boxes (no idea why) .The Battle of Britain starter set has now sold out with Warlord but is still available from other suppliers.

    The key here is that there is no reason at all why you cant play both. You need more planes to really make BRS work, as it is a flight \ squadron game, but as I said at the start, it is in my opinion a far better game than WGS

  8. #8

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    Personal opinion - and I appreciate others may not agree,

    The game WGS is streets ahead of BRS in almost every level - plays better, needs fewer planes (! - always a good thing) plays smoother, plays better, feels more like a "dogfight". Unfortunately new models are not being regularly added, but when they are, they are generally better (and PAINTED!!!) than their BRS alternatives. Support from the manufacturer is VERY patchy, but I can't comment on Warlord personally, though my gaming friends are starting to cite a worrying drop off in support. A drop-off which pre-dates COVID; hopefully "Warlord" can turn this around, as they have always, until recently, had a great reputation amongst gamers.
    Community support here (Aerodrome) is excellent (can't comment about BRS Community)

    The tilting stands in the BRS game are precisely the wrong way around - an "advantaged" plane should look as though it is diving onto it's victim; a "disadvantaged" plane should appear to be struggling up to meet it's opponent! The game play as written for BRS 'looks' entirely wrong.

    Models. The "Nexus" models were better than the "Ares" current ones, though most "Ares" are FAR better than BRS, being pre-painted! The Me 109K was a horrible aberration, but the other models are fine. The decal coverage on the wing edges and tail joints on the "Ares" BoB models is poor (Crappycanes, anyone?) but does not interfere with getting the models straight out of their boxes and onto the table - if it REALLY bugs you, a simple bit of edge-covering paint is easy enough to do.
    I have never broken a single prop blade on a WGS model - "littering" must be a by-product of ham-fisted players! On balance the new BRS models look pretty good, except for their steel-girder-cage canopies - a little bit of raised framework would be great, but their designers have seriously overdone it.

    WGS rules are unchanged, and have not needed changes for several years. With BRS "Rules were slightly overhauled for the Air Strike supplement which introduced air to ground attacks"? - I have not personally experienced the overhaul, but the fact that an "overhaul" was necessary so soon after production suggests a worrying lack of play-testing before the release of the initial "wave".
    There is no BRS Midway starter set yet, but this has been delayed due to COVID. The proposed "Midway" starter set for WGS never appeared, to the great distress of many WGS player, myself included. There will hopefully be Pacific new releases from "Ares", as inside information has informed us, particularly around the 'Cactus Air Force' around Guadalcanal - I would therefore expect reprints of Wilcats, Zekes (correctly scaled!) and Vals. BRS is ahead of "Ares" in its development of Kates and Devastators/Avengers.

    The "Ares" Battle of Britain starter set is still available from game stores and online suppliers.

    The key here is that there is no reason at all why you can't play both. You need more planes to really make BRS work, as it is a flight/squadron game, and as I said at the start, that is one of the reasons why in my opinion WGS is a far better game than BRS.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post

    WGS rules are unchanged, and have not needed changes for several years. With BRS "Rules were slightly overhauled for the Air Strike supplement which introduced air to ground attacks"? - I have not personally experienced the overhaul, but the fact that an "overhaul" was necessary so soon after production suggests a worrying lack of play-testing before the release of the initial "wave".
    By overhaul I mean a few items were clarified, which given the rules have been out and selling for 2 years isn't that bad. I would point out Wings went through several versions in its first two years, but I suspect that wont be welcome or acknowledged.

  10. #10

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    The only thing that stopped me from buying into BRS was the need to paint the planes. From the one game I have watched there seemed to be nothing wrong with the game as far as I could see, and it should be fun to play. If you google Blood Red Skies game You Tube you will have quite a few video clips on how it plays.

    You can download the rules here too if you want to check them out.

    https://store.warlordgames.com/produ...arter-rulebook

  11. #11

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    ive acquired a good few brs aircraft for wog. its pretty easy to convert as the hole for the brs stand converts pretty easy for a wog peg. so far ive only gotten metal and the later plastic ones so i have had the warping problem. loved the corsair.

  12. #12

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    Apart from the minis discussion is there really no one out there that can give an unbiased opinion based on real gaming experience with both systems?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    Apart from the minis discussion is there really no one out there that can give an unbiased opinion based on real gaming experience with both systems?
    I already did. I played WGS from release avidly until BRS was released. Now I play BRS for the reasons I gave. I appreciate it may not be a welcome opinion on a WGS forum, but it is what it is

  14. #14

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    Both games are very different and thus cater to other interests. Which you prefer is your opinion and every one is entitled to pursue their interest. That said cross overs can be good both ways, try to keep it civil and honest. I am still looking for a game that encompasses vast squadrons in constant action across a giant map like in the war rooms on the Battle of Britian movie, but alas no one has quite approximated it, yet. So my eyes and mind are open, watching, waiting . . . Thanks for all the honest sharing!

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    I am still looking for a game that encompasses vast squadrons in constant action across a giant map like in the war rooms on the Battle of Britian movie, but alas no one has quite approximated it, yet. So my eyes and mind are open, watching, waiting . . . Thanks for all the honest sharing!
    Isnt the PSC game Battle of Britain something like that?

  16. #16

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    Yes and no, the video was more hype than bite with actors, the scale and game were not what I was hoping. I bought into the KICKSTARTER and bailed at the last minute when I saw more details . . . even tried to replicate it on my own, the map was key and I got distracted by other projects. Now my youngest son is home from the NZ I may put him to work on it . . .

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Yes and no, the video was more hype than bite with actors, the scale and game were not what I was hoping. I bought into the KICKSTARTER and bailed at the last minute when I saw more details . . . even tried to replicate it on my own, the map was key and I got distracted by other projects. Now my youngest son is home from the NZ I may put him to work on it . . .
    There was a series of educational packages available in the UK when I were a nipper - 1st day of the Somme etc that had repro docs and maps - the Battle of Britain one had a very large sector map that I always thought would make a good start point. Mick Spick's book "Air Battles in Miniature" has some good campaign rules for BoB and Malta on a grand scale if you can pick them up

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Yes and no, the video was more hype than bite with actors, the scale and game were not what I was hoping. I bought into the KICKSTARTER and bailed at the last minute when I saw more details . . . even tried to replicate it on my own, the map was key and I got distracted by other projects. Now my youngest son is home from the NZ I may put him to work on it . . .
    I'd go for a big map of sector 11 to start with David - you can always add the other sectors.


    Something like these guys are using !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhKuO8LJEX0

    "He is wise who watches"

  19. #19

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    I was thinking ....... You could almost see this exact argument in parallel starting up on the Sails of Glory website .... Oak & Iron vs Sails of Glory! Anyone tried Oak & Iron yet? Again, I am put off by the need to paint the models but at 1/600 it should be easier than WoG or Wog miniatures.

    One thing that is missing from BRS and Oak & Iron though are these forums. they surely have to be one of the factors in deciding to play WoG or SoG rather than competitors.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post

    One thing that is missing from BRS and Oak & Iron though are these forums. they surely have to be one of the factors in deciding to play WoG or SoG rather than competitors.
    The 1775 members of the Ready Room seems to suggest otherwise. To be honest Facebook is a bloody awful medium because it does not allow easy file storage - or rather you cant organise files very well

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I'd go for a big map of sector 11 to start with David - you can always add the other sectors.


    Something like these guys are using !
    Biggen Hill ?????

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I'd go for a big map of sector 11 to start with David - you can always add the other sectors.


    Something like these guys are using !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhKuO8LJEX0
    Yeah, that's the ticket! Now replace the blocks with groups of minis and let the game begin!

  23. #23

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    I've downloaded the basic rules. I like how BRS defines the winning conditions with boom chits:

    "You win the game through morale, which is measured with ʻBoom chitsʼ. Boom chits represent light damage and a squadronʼs cohesion breaking down as pilots get rattled by enemy attacks, along with the rapid expenditure of fuel and ammunition during a dogfight.....If a player reaches a total number of boom chits greater than their current number of aircraft (e.g.six for five planes) their squadron will disengage from the fight...."

    There is no need to fight to the complete annihilation of the enemy.
    I play WoG mostly solo and I found that I prefer shorter games. I would like more planes on the table though. Adopting some kind of disengagement rule as winning condition may be my solution for shorter games with many planes.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    There was a series of educational packages available in the UK when I were a nipper - 1st day of the Somme etc that had repro docs and maps - the Battle of Britain one had a very large sector map that I always thought would make a good start point. Mick Spick's book "Air Battles in Miniature" has some good campaign rules for BoB and Malta on a grand scale if you can pick them up
    Is this the educational package, to which you were referring, Ken? The Jackdaw Folder No.65 Battle of Britain pack compiled by Basil Collier?

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    I still have my copy.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    I've downloaded the basic rules. I like how BRS defines the winning conditions with boom chits:

    "You win the game through morale, which is measured with ʻBoom chitsʼ. Boom chits represent light damage and a squadronʼs cohesion breaking down as pilots get rattled by enemy attacks, along with the rapid expenditure of fuel and ammunition during a dogfight.....If a player reaches a total number of boom chits greater than their current number of aircraft (e.g.six for five planes) their squadron will disengage from the fight...."

    There is no need to fight to the complete annihilation of the enemy.
    I play WoG mostly solo and I found that I prefer shorter games. I would like more planes on the table though. Adopting some kind of disengagement rule as winning condition may be my solution for shorter games with many planes.
    Originally, I think, the game was played with some amount of common sense. There has been some creep over time, as players who want to win, will risk it all down to the wire (or last hit point). It isn't until you get into campaigns that recklessly pressing the fight to the bitter end in a busted machine starts to have serious consequences. It is up to the players to decide when they break off a fight. If BRS has formalized that into their rules, that's OK, and probably more realistic. But, it also doesn't allow for the utterly fearless, or reckless, to occassionally win the day with a plane all but shot out of the sky.

    In the Over the Trenches Campaign on this Forum, there is a means of determining when a pilot should head for home. I have adapted those guidelines a bit in playtesting the Wings of Glory Campaign and Scenario Pack (Still in development, not available for public release). This is what we are currently playing with:

    Morale During a Scenario (Comox Valley Gaming Group - Optional)
    All aircraft will actively engage until they are:
    - within 3 of destruction, or,
    - within 5 of destruction if on fire, or,
    - the pilot’s wounded (on A deck 5 or B deck 3) or,
    - the engine is damaged.
    They will then disengage and head for the barn at best speed taking whatever evasive maneuvers are necessary for survival, and shots at targets of opportunity - that's something in range crossing their nose!
    Wounded pilots bugging out - Rather than they just go, we use the damage number to dictate the result ie the severity of the wound. So on a Wounded Pilot A deck hit of 5 or B deck hit of 3 the pilots head for home but on a Wounded Pilot A deck 3 or B deck 1 they will stay in the fight. This means your pilots may fight on in spite of a wound, or, equally, may push off home. The cards will decide.


    So, you can use the above, at any time, in any game, if you want to embody some "self-preservation" instincts into the players, using 'rules'. The above guidelines don't include reference to other planes on the same side, though. That could be an addendum depending on the experience level of the specific pilot in question. If a Rookie suddenly finds himself the last plane in the air on his side, does he run? What was the mission, and is the goal just a shot or two from being achieved?

    Lots of variables could be considered, in any situation. Unless you are getting into tracking ammo and fuel, too? This is something that Wings of Glory does provide with Optional rules (and lots of analysis on this Forum), but usually isn't tracked in casual games. I love Wings of Glory because it doesn't get into the minutiae of hard-core combat simulations. The Campaign and Scenario Pack does allow for the tracking of damage to planes from scenario to scenario. This means a squadron could run out of planes over time, if pilots press fights too hard on too many occassions. What happens then, is up to the organizer of the campaign, but in our playtest, it means you drop down to less capable, earlier planes until your better planes are repaired or new planes come into the theatre (Timeline tracking).

    Wait. Another thing to track? More paperwork and less flying of planes? I see some of the fun bleeding out of this process...

    PS: William Barker, in his last flight in WWI, was flying solo when he ended up engaging up to 60 German planes. He was shot down, but he was wounded three times in the process, and IIRC, ran out of ammo, and attempted to ram some enemy planes towards the end of the fight. He crashed just in front of the Entente trench lines, and was dragged out of his plane by infantry, and lived to fly another day (not in WWI). He shot down four German planes, and damaged many others. This is not in the rules, nor is it possible to replicate with the above guidelines. But it happened. Expanded Ace Skills perhaps, IE: Exeptional Constitution? Pilot can completely ignore the first wound, drops to Rookie status on the second wound, and is eliminated on a third wound. This would require that any Pilot Wounded Special Damage cards drawn by the pilot in question be recorded and shuffled back into the deck (without the opponent seeing the card). Gonna have to incorporate this into our campaign...

    PPS: The Aerodrome - William George Barker
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-30-2020 at 00:48.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  26. #26

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    @OldGuy59
    Thanks for your detailed comment Mike. One great thing about WoG is configurability for different scenarios. The problem is that every new idea needs plenty of play testing. Not every occasional player may want to invest that effort or even search the forum for ideas.
    For this reason I think the official scenario booklet should be much richer, providing more proven workable scenarios including campaigns.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    ...In the Over the Trenches Campaign on this Forum, there is a means of determining when a pilot should head for home. I have adapted those guidelines a bit in playtesting the Wings of Glory Campaign and Scenario Pack (Still in development, not available for public release)..
    Excellent, I hope I get credited for my ideas if they get included in the book...
    Surprised the Campaign and Scenario Pack is still, apparently, so far away from release, it's been talked about for so many years now I'd thought it was either ready to go, or, shelved indefinitely.

    "He is wise who watches"

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    @OldGuy59
    Thanks for your detailed comment Mike. One great thing about WoG is configurability for different scenarios. The problem is that every new idea needs plenty of play testing. Not every occasional player may want to invest that effort or even search the forum for ideas.
    For this reason I think the official scenario booklet should be much richer, providing more proven workable scenarios including campaigns.
    I'm not aware of any Official Campaign and Scenario booklet. There was a small scenario inclusion, somewhere, but it was pretty minimal, just a few ideas on how to put together a game or two. I think it was intended that a separate offering would be produced, but that project, regretably, is ongoing. With such a small company, and with limited cashflow, projects tend to take a long time. COVID-19 has done nothing good for anything in Italy, certainly not for the development, release and distribution of anything Wings of Glory related.

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Excellent, I hope I get credited for my ideas if they get included in the book...
    Surprised the Campaign and Scenario Pack is still, apparently, so far away from release, it's been talked about for so many years now I'd thought it was either ready to go, or, shelved indefinitely.
    Dave,
    Now that I have something more than a few lines in a guideline (OTT Campaign Rules), including the source of the information, I will ensure that Andrea is informed. I just wanted something that was definitive for players to use in games, especially when the "win" was within grasp. We'll see if, and when, the rule denies one of us a "win".
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  29. #29

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    That's the feller!



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