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Thread: Fokker D.VII = Unobtainium?

  1. #1

    Default Fokker D.VII = Unobtainium?

    Hi all,

    I'm just curious why the Fokker D.VII is so rare for WGF minis... ? I was looking on eBay, wow! Is it due to lack of production during COVID? Or they just weren't making them anymore? It's not the end of the world... I'll just continue suffering at the hands of my sons in their SE5a's and Camels until I can get reinforcements (not unlike the Jadgflieger in Spring 1918!).

    Thanks,
    -Max

  2. #2

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    All releases are limited runs Max. The Fokker D.VII is the best fighter in the game with the most varied/unique manoeuvre deck so the most desirable plane to have. The original run by Nexus was 2007/8 or thereabouts, Ares did not print them until 2014, by which time their rare status was legendary so, as you'd expect, they got scooped up fast. That was nearly six years ago now and Fokker D.VII times are lean once more - hence the premium prices if you can find one. Don't give up though, they do come along cheap sometimes from unexpected places or people.

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

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    Put a request thread in the "Wanted" section of the Forum, and hopefully someone will help you out.

  4. #4

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    Part of the problem with some planes in this game is that because they are popular, players get multiple copies for various reasons.

    I'm one of those, having managed to gather a few Nexus Snipes, but no D.VIIs, as they were long gone. So, when Ares reprinted the series, I picked up the two new Snipe colour schemes, but acquired five D.VIIs (3 Goering whites to repaint) to fill out my collection.

    Look at the Official Painting Showcase to get an idea of the extent of the issue. Not many repaints of Sopwith Snipes, but many of the Fokker D.VII. And that's just those on this Forum wanting to show off their talents.

    I don't know how extensive this is, but I've become aware of what I call 'poaching' by other game system players scooping up Wings of Glory planes for their games. At a local convention, I played a game of Canvas Eagles, where the game host had an extensive collection of Wings of War/Glory planes, including many late-war planes (not 'quite' squadrons of types).

    For those looking to get their first, or one and only, plane of a type, the Ares production schedule is depressing, at times. Patience, or modeling skill, are the choices.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

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    Ah ok, I understand. Thanks for the explanation and advice guys, I appreciate it!

    Best,
    -Max

  6. #6

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    Hey Max, welcome to our addiction. As a long time enabler of the game I may know a guy . . . PM me with your interests and I'll visit him in his sleep . . .

  7. #7

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    Are we allowed to post store info in these threads? I may know a store that has one behind the counter. Not sure what they'll sell it for but can ask.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
    Are we allowed to post store info in these threads? I may know a store that has one behind the counter. Not sure what they'll sell it for but can ask.
    Whenever I see a good deal or a plane that might be of interest to others I will post it's location in the Sales/Trades/Wanted Classified section.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Whenever I see a good deal or a plane that might be of interest to others I will post it's location in the Sales/Trades/Wanted Classified section.
    Yikes! I better change my address, a lot of desirable minis live here! er, no, they just moved on, yeah that's it they are out there, somewhere . . . . else! : )

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Whenever I see a good deal or a plane that might be of interest to others I will post it's location in the Sales/Trades/Wanted Classified section.
    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Yikes! I better change my address, a lot of desirable minis live here! er, no, they just moved on, yeah that's it they are out there, somewhere . . . . else! : )
    Nothing to fear Clipper. I meant shops or ebay. If I passed on Aerodrome members locations who have considerable collections I'm sure I'd be...um, silenced?

  11. #11

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    I am not so secure with Diamondbacks arsenal of assault toys we may not be safe! Just having some fun! I am cracking under 108 degree weather with high heat warnings . . . meanwhile sorting my collection, yikes! Way too many birds!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    Hey Max, welcome to our addiction. As a long time enabler of the game I may know a guy . . . PM me with your interests and I'll visit him in his sleep . . .
    Thanks David, PM sent.

  13. #13

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    Well, we just recently had a second group for Series 4 and a third for Series 1... I would bet that series 2-C is at least on their radar.
    Wings of Glory WWI Checklist | WGF Nexus Ser. 1-4 and Ares Ser. 1-2 + 5-9 COMPLETE, RDS 4/4, Specials COMPLETE
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  14. #14

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    Sadly series 2 has an interesting mix. The Fokker D.VII is gold but what is the Roland C.II doing in the set of late(er) war planes?

  15. #15

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    You'd have to ask Ares that... sorta like "why don't we have a DFW C.V or a Sopwith Pup" for Imponderables.
    Wings of Glory WWI Checklist | WGF Nexus Ser. 1-4 and Ares Ser. 1-2 + 5-9 COMPLETE, RDS 4/4, Specials COMPLETE
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Sadly series 2 has an interesting mix. The Fokker D.VII is gold but what is the Roland C.II doing in the set of late(er) war planes?
    It was the first set with tandems in but we'd have to ask Nexus why they chose the planes they did - I think it was because of the unusual arc of fire the Roland introduced myself; as to the DH.4 I'm still wondering why they brought that in first, the RE.8 would have been a better choice, at least the Albatros could catch up to it. Glad to have them though, even if mine see little time on the table.

    "He is wise who watches"

  17. #17

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    Let's just say that "holistic planning" and "long term roadmaps" are not particularly Ares' strong suits nor those of any other game designer, hence "Power Creep" and "Nerfings." Rich Baker squeezed himself into a lot of tight spots on AAM/WAS with units where one possible stat was too low, up one too high so he had to use conditional "special abilities" to do what should have been done in unit stats... and we see similar squeezes over on Sails.

    My one never finished attempt at game design (an attempt at a WWII re-skin of Wizkids Pirates), I insisted that my team try to stat everything from MTB's and fighter planes all the way to H39/Sovietskiy Soyuz/USS Montana before we even started putting together set lists, just to make sure we wouldn't get cornered, but very few are willing to put in that kind of front-end effort.
    Wings of Glory WWI Checklist | WGF Nexus Ser. 1-4 and Ares Ser. 1-2 + 5-9 COMPLETE, RDS 4/4, Specials COMPLETE
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  18. #18

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    I was going to suggest that you try a Fokker E.V. It is not as good as a Fokker D.VII but it does have a single 90 degree left turn (something a Camel cannot do) and two wide sideslips, although they are not as wide as the S.E.5a's. I was also going to suggest you try a two-seater fighter like a Hannover or a Halberstadt. However, when I looked at Miniature Market they are sold out of nearly everything.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    ... If I passed on Aerodrome members locations who have considerable collections I'm sure I'd be...um, silenced?
    Had to do-oo it chaps, he'd given out Uncle's address....
    Name:  p06pbpdq.jpg
Views: 209
Size:  54.2 KB

    "He is wise who watches"

  20. #20

    Derrick's Avatar
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    I PMed info. Can't tell if it sent or not. So let me know if you didn't get it.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    I am not so secure with Diamondbacks arsenal of assault toys we may not be safe! Just having some fun! I am cracking under 108 degree weather with high heat warnings . . . meanwhile sorting my collection, yikes! Way too many birds!
    They're not "assault toys," they're Homeland/Homestead Defense rifles... and if the girlfriend's in town, forget about me, beware of HER.

    Besides, my one-of-everything-and-two-of-each-Squadron-Pack is, you have to admit, Amateur Hour by this place's standards...
    Wings of Glory WWI Checklist | WGF Nexus Ser. 1-4 and Ares Ser. 1-2 + 5-9 COMPLETE, RDS 4/4, Specials COMPLETE
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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
    I PMed info. Can't tell if it sent or not. So let me know if you didn't get it.
    Got it, thank you!

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Nothing to fear Clipper. I meant shops or ebay. If I passed on Aerodrome members locations who have considerable collections I'm sure I'd be...um, silenced?



    dromicided!!!!

  24. #24

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    Only series I never bought extras of was series 1. Didn't thing I would need more then 1 of each plane...until now.

  25. #25

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    here's a question Ares announce they're going to re issue Fokker D.VII's (same 3 as before) How many do you think they could supply to satisfy the demand. Was going to say a million but have decided on a conservative starting figure of 100,000. Go

  26. #26

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    The actual numbers produced was once shared and it was way less than most of us thought. Anyone remember that thread? I would guess we are talking less than 1,000 . . . and that impacts production costs considerably . . . who is next . . .

  27. #27

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    Whichever series they reprint I'll take a couple dozen of any with lozenge camo wings.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    The actual numbers produced was once shared and it was way less than most of us thought. Anyone remember that thread? I would guess we are talking less than 1,000 . . . and that impacts production costs considerably . . . who is next . . .
    When you consider that an entire Series of Wings or Sails production batch is two shipping containers to cover the entire WORLD...
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    The actual numbers produced was once shared and it was way less than most of us thought.
    Anyone remember that thread ?
    Here are the results of a quick research :

    Wings of War in numbers - Nexus 2011
    More than 90.000 base sets sold worldwide, and over 400.000 various packs sold until now.
    14 the languages which the game has been officially published, besides the translations made by local importers.
    68 kinds of airplanes included in the game until now, in 104 variants, with individual colors that depict 381 different equipments.
    84 the various models currently available in the "Miniatures" version.
    13 the days in which the first American edition has been sold out.
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...1-News-Release

    From the start in the first 4 years, during Nexus Editrice management (March 2004 - April 2008), the game sold a total of 65.616 basic boxes (adding together all boxes with a complete rulebook, playable on their own) and a total of 195.378 items adding to them all the expansions and accessories sold separately.
    From the start at March 2004 to December 31st, 2010, then including NG International management, these figures rised to 107.738 basic boxes and a total of 506.704 items adding them expansions and accessories.
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...l=1#post369319

  30. #30

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    Way cool, Thanks! Now to put it in my pipe and smoke it . . .

  31. #31

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    Interesting link Monse - the models projected in it were the first brought out by Ares.
    It would be interesting to see how those figures break down further...
    More than 90.000 base sets sold worldwide
    So FA, WYB, BD, FotG.. Deluxe Set, Revised Deluxe Set maybe 15k of each give or take 5k..?

    and over 400.000 various packs sold until now.
    Boosters & minis ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  32. #32

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    FOTG didn't include damage decks IIRC, it was only an "expansion" as opposed to the five "core" card boxes (WWI and WWII) and three Minis deluxes.

    A large part of the problem is available capital and cash flows--Nexus was treated as an unwanted "bastard stepchild" by their owners at Italeri Models, and Ares is still a very tiny company, enough so that frankly it's remarkable they can deliver the quality of product they do with the resources they have to do it with.

    I don't know if Ares can legally sell shares as an SRL ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societ...C3%A0_limitata ), and I know the owners would rather keep it close-hold in order to never again risk corporate-overlord meddling and other "loss of control," but it seems to me that a limited offering of shares, say no more than 30% of the company and with strict limits on how many shares any one person/entity can buy, could go a long way giving them funds to work with.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 05-31-2020 at 09:32.
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  33. #33

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    FotG has a B damage deck DB and is a base set for bombers.

    "He is wise who watches"

  34. #34

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    My mistake, though I distinctly recall the box being marked "Not a complete game, must own at least one of FA/WYB/BD to play."
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  35. #35

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    It says that in the small print in the middle of the bottom of the box and it also says that on page 3 of the FOTG rulebook.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    My mistake, though I distinctly recall the box being marked "Not a complete game, must own at least one of FA/WYB/BD to play."
    That's because you'd need the fighters & rules for them to go with/against the bombers...:
    "To use this set, you must own any Wings of War boxed set that includes the basic game rules and some single-engine planes,..."

    "He is wise who watches"

  37. #37

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    So we are left with fine granular data, the number of say D-VII's produced is unknown to us, but is far smaller than we thought. Small runs are not inexpensive when the molds alone can cost $1000's. Add the costs of support parts, pegs, bases, cards, packaging, shipping, and disribution your profit is meager at best. As I see it we are lucky we have what we have . . .

  38. #38

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    And finite supply plus multiple-entire-Jasta-builder demand is a recipe for a Perfect Storm price-spike. Last time I was *extremely* fortunate that another member was willing to help, and IIRC Xen sent me the last deadstock Nexus D.VII's in Australia, which were the last in the world.
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    And finite supply plus multiple-entire-Jasta-builder demand is a recipe for a Perfect Storm price-spike.
    Sorry

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Sorry
    Not blaming anybody, just noting inherent market forces; if space, budget and supply were available I'd want to build JG nr I and all its major opposing squadrons kite-for-kite... then give the same treatment across all three major JG's of the Western Front.

    The only way I see this changing is either something with unprecedented profitability for Ares (not likely), another Kickstarter (which they're loath to do for good reason, Brick & Mortar hates the perceived competition) or a MASSIVE infusion of new capital.
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  41. #41

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    were are indeed lucky to get whatever we get. thats doesnt stop me from wanting more though!

  42. #42

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    There was a "Stark"on Ebay.com:

    Name:  <acronym title=WoW.jpg Views: 87 Size: 55.1 KB" style="float: CONFIG" />

    Only 3 bidders (was one of them)...so it seems that there are not sooo many who wants the planes, but the one who does do it at nearly every Price.

    My Problem is, that I live in Germany and with auctions in the USA I have the disadvantage that I have to pay about 40 Euro extra for shipping/customs so that this amount diminishes my bit.

  43. #43

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    Ugh! I had just repainted a pair of Starks!

  44. #44

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    lol Save the Starks! Repaint the Goerings.

  45. #45

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    Dream - mix of not shares / not kickstarter. Interested parties (i.e. us or anyone) say to Ares "each person will give you 25 (insert currency of choice) to produce a run of planes. We don't want shares in your company, but each contributor will be entitled to ONE plane of their choice from the planes you produce. There should be a number of planes available for the open market and we could buy those as well. Ah well, we can all dream

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Ugh! I had just repainted a pair of Starks!
    I got three more a year or so back to do just that after seeing what you did with yours.

  47. #47

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    I was one of the bidders on the Stark. Well, to be fair, I bid on all Fokker D.VIIs on eBay, but I have my set limit. That limit was passed very early on this one.
    I’m trying to scrounge together a reasonable number of repaint donors, but the prices since February have been stupid. So I’ll use up the few I have and wait and see. My patience has improved with Stay at Home.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by camel crew View Post
    Dream - mix of not shares / not kickstarter. Interested parties (i.e. us or anyone) say to Ares "each person will give you 25 (insert currency of choice) to produce a run of planes. We don't want shares in your company, but each contributor will be entitled to ONE plane of their choice from the planes you produce. There should be a number of planes available for the open market and we could buy those as well. Ah well, we can all dream
    Problem is, you need a certain minimum run of any given deco--what happens if you pony up and your choice doesn't Make Minimum?

    Personally, I'd go with a "Fan-Created Wave"--announce one Series sculpt-group, run a poll each here and at BGG to select nominations for each sculpt, then announce a poll on their own website and "top-two decoes for each sculpt go into production, others maybe later." They're a low-resources company, so they gotta keep things simple, and the more we can do to minimize their development cost for any given idea the better the chance it has. Or pick some units that had highly standardized markings with limited "personal markings" and do those as Squadron Packs--that way they only have to do one deco and one decal but completists need to buy 4-6 copies.
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  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Ugh! I had just repainted a pair of Starks!
    I'm down to my last 3 Starks, having misjudged my stock and sold 4 on to other UK 'Dromers.
    I need to keep them for repaints, and ideally need two more..............

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Problem is, you need a certain minimum run of any given deco--what happens if you pony up and your choice doesn't Make Minimum?

    Personally, I'd go with a "Fan-Created Wave"--announce one Series sculpt-group, run a poll each here and at BGG to select nominations for each sculpt, then announce a poll on their own website and "top-two decoes for each sculpt go into production, others maybe later." They're a low-resources company, so they gotta keep things simple, and the more we can do to minimize their development cost for any given idea the better the chance it has. Or pick some units that had highly standardized markings with limited "personal markings" and do those as Squadron Packs--that way they only have to do one deco and one decal but completists need to buy 4-6 copies.
    That seems like it would be viable with the only pain administering the KS. But worthwhile to promote the game again. If they're worried about pissing off local stores they could release to them 30-90 days before fulfilling to backers. Been done in many KSers prior and usually not an issue if the campaign is clear up front about fulfillment. Either that or offer a retailer bundle at better pricing -- but that is more difficult to vet eligibility.

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