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Thread: Rear Gunner and Split-S

  1. #1

    Default Rear Gunner and Split-S

    Can Rear Gunner fire during the Split-S sequence?

  2. #2

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    No

    Same as the Immelmann, a rear gunner cannot shoot on any of the three cards of the sequence.
    If he tries, he falls out!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    If he tries, he falls out!
    He'd better strap himsef!

  4. #4

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    so what happens if youve ended your set on a straight, and the gunner fires and you decide to do an immelmann for your next move?

  5. #5

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    You cannot do it then, it is in Dave's FAQ i think.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    so what happens if youve ended your set on a straight, and the gunner fires and you decide to do an immelmann for your next move?
    If you shot on your last card of the previous turn and then plot an Immelmann, that would be an illegal move so you would replace the Immelmann with a straight and take an A damage.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    If you shot on your last card of the previous turn and then plot an Immelmann, that would be an illegal move so you would replace the Immelmann with a straight and take an A damage.
    Exactly this.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    ... it is in Dave's FAQ i think.
    No it's not but it is clearly stated in the rule under Observers and Immelmann Turn of the Two Seater section (p.24 in my edition).

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #9

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    And there we go again - "it cannot plan the Immelmann turn maneuver ...".

    So this is what cannot means - you can do it but you will be penalized.

  10. #10

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    Wrong

    Cannot Do It means Must Not Do It / Is Not Allowed.

    At All

    It is precisely the opposite of what Andrea said to you recently.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  11. #11

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    well, as someone whos been in a biplane doing acrobatics (including a loop) centrifugal force will keep you in the aircraft. except maybe during a hammerhead stall.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    ……………………………………………. except maybe during a hammerhead stall.
    ……….which is pretty much exactly your position at the top of the loop/turn of an Immelmann (up) or Split-S (down).

    My take on it is this...….

    These early planes were not aerobatic platforms - they were made as light as possible, owing to the limited horsepower of the engines, and were very susceptible to sudden gusts of wind! The addition of the weight of moveable armament and cargo (gunner) beyond the pilot's eyeline and control would play havoc with the plane's centre of gravity and stability.



    1st card (straight/stall) - the pilot needs to inform the gunner he is about to perform a reverse (second card) - ie. turn around, slap him on the shoulder/head, distracting him from whatever he is doing; the gunner has just a couple of seconds to return the gun/s to the centreline, lock them in place, and hunch down into the fuselage & strap in if possible (get as close to the centre of gravity as possible).

    2nd card (reverse) - the plane climbs/dives then stands on its wing (left or right), gravity acting on all moveable objects and attempting to throw them out of the plane! The pilot can maintain control precisely because there is no sudden shift in cargo load behind him.

    3rd card (straight) - the gunner can now release his seatbelt, stand up behind the gun/s, and unlock it/them on the gun ring and swing it/them toward a potential target for the following card (="4th").


    If the gun is NOT locked in place, when the plane stands on its wing, the whole weight of the gun/s + ammo will suddenly swing around the gun ring and shift towards the low side, producing a sharp turning moment which will only be accentuated by adding the weight of the un-strapped gunner to it! This sudden rotational force would probably be enough to cause the plane to invert (it is already in the middle of a very sharp turn, with very limited airspeed), tipping the gunner out and making the pilot lose control entirely. (? BOOM card?).

    Think of a ship, rolling to starboard suddenly in a heavy sea - if its unsecured cargo shifts to the starboard side, as gravity and the new rotational force will be trying to make it do, the ship might well pass beyond its recovery position and capsize...…...
    It is the same for the aeroplane.

    Only by locking down, and knowing the cargo will not shift, can the pilot control the manoeuvre.


    So, I'm happy to follow the rules as written - no shooting from the rear seat on all 3 cards of the manoeuvre.
    Personally, I would also prefer to disallow shooting for the pilot on the reversal card itself - he has far too much to do to aim a shot at a dodging enemy!

    For those who see two-seaters as too powerful in the game already, allowing Immelmann/Split-s shooting for the rear gunner only makes them even more powerful!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  13. #13

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    Gotta agree with Tim on this one-shifting forces when the pilot is already trying to account for delicate control just adds a lot of chaos to the situation.

  14. #14

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    One more thing we need markers on the cockpits for.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  15. #15

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    "……….which is pretty much exactly your position at the top of the loop/turn of an Immelmann (up) or Split-S (down)."
    actually not at all. a hammerhead stall you fly vertical or near vertical until your aircraft intentionally looses all energy and stalls and falls back down. you wouldnt want to do this in combat as your almost motionless at the apogee and would be extremely vulnerable.

    i would argue that by at least mid war aircraft were being designed with acrobatic maneuvering in mind. there is some famous footage of a german 2 seater doing a rather steep banking turn judging by seeing the ground in the frame, while the gunner is tracking and presumably firing at a target. sure its not an immalman but the pilot seems unfazed by the gunners and guns movements.
    doing a loop the aircraft is in continuous motion and centrifugal force is acting on the occupants throughout. i was actually surprised how relativity little movement was caused by the aircrafts maneuvers on myself and my friend as we werent secured with seatbelts but only a lockdown bar a la rollercoaster. the only time i recall being even remotely free floating was during the hammerhead stall.

    i cant speak to the center of gravity issues. but it was my understanding the the rings were locked until the gunner unlocked them to move it. as for the the gun itself i would think that centrifugal force would work on it equally as much as the gunner and with being held by the gunner would be enough to keep it from sudden movements. i seem to recall reading somewhere that gunners would hold on to the gun itself for added stability.

    i can say that the pilot took no notice of my friend and i and most certainly did not give us any forewarning (even when i wished he would have lol) of any maneuver he did.

    well, i guess this then is an area where one would be free to house rule it to ones taste. i think the rule is incorrect, you do not. to each their own.

    well, according to the pilots memoir i read dealing with 2 seaters, they were very powerful and woe to any pilot who, in their eagerness attacked one solo without coordinating with wingmen. he referred to the hannover clIII by description something to the effect as "that damned biplane tail hun machine with no rear blind spot" and seemed to have great respect for them.

    personally i think this particular rule adds unneeded complication to the came as, if theres some sort of interruption prior to replotting, its all too easy to forget if you did, or did not fire the rear gunner on that last straight or not. the only remedy is yet another marker of some sort that you have to remember to deal out in the 1st place. seems too much a bother to me, but as i said, to each their own.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    ...personally i think this particular rule adds unneeded complication to the game as, if theres some sort of interruption prior to replotting, its all too easy to forget if you did, or did not fire the rear gunner on that last straight or not...
    I have to agree with that - if anything restrict it on the immelmann turn card, we can all remember that & it's current with play - but for those that want to play the rule, rather than incur a card penalty in that circumstance ...
    Just 'eject' the gunner !

    "He is wise who watches"

  17. #17

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    We've been talking about this in our wing. Not shooting after a straight maneuver makes a double-seater too predictable. We are houseruling it to just the turn card.

  18. #18

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    My ideal position is to ban two-seaters from Immelmann turn/Split-s altogether.

    I'm not convinced they could do it at all - it's Ares Second Biggest Mistake in the game (number One is failing to have a second 'Fire' card and second 'Smoke' card in the 'A' damage deck).

    I'm by no means an expert, but I'm pretty widely read now and haven't ever found a single reference to this ability with a two-seater, or anything close to it.

    In the Immelmann turn, the position DOES mimic the Hammerhead turn, almost exactly! Maintaining any kind of speed during the turn would open such a huge gap between yourself and your target that you might never catch up to have another shot!
    "unwise in a combat situation" - definitely!
    That's why I would like to restrict it to single seaters only ...............

    However, too many of my friends like to include it, so I bow to their wishes, but severely restrict it when able.

    As for needing counters/markers, we already have them!
    Included in the "Nexus" box sets, we have "reversal" and "straight" counters.........I use them a lot (as a bear-of-very-little-brain); I have never seen anyone else ever use them!


    As for "making the double seater too predictable", well....

    1) It Should! Two-seaters should never be as unpredicatble as single-seat scouts!
    2) no it doesn't - it's an ideal bluff; fly 'straight' on card 3, and don't shoot the rear gun............your opponent will plot to expect an Immelmann, while you actually plan a long sideslip, extend, and escape!

    "but it was my understanding the the rings were locked until the gunner unlocked them to move it" - really, never heard this myself, and locking the guns in place at any time during a dogfight reduces your fire arc to just a single line, not an arc at all, and this is "aimed" by the pilot, who is facing the other way, and has entirely different priorities to the gunner!

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    As Phil said, it's horse for courses, and each player should, of course, choose the "house rule" option which best suits himself.
    I, personally, will Never accept a rear shot during a three-card reversal as being in any way plausible.
    But that's just me.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  19. #19

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    no it doesn't - it's an ideal bluff; fly 'straight' on card 3, and don't shoot the rear gun
    Except you always want to shoot at the first place in this game. If you want to win that is.

    Not a big deal, this really doesn't bother me and i will go with anything people agree on. The game should be fun to play at the first place, because it is not really a simulation game anyway.

  20. #20

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    Yeah, that's where you and I differ!

    You're in the "shoot, shoot, shoot, must-always-shoot, every-card-shoot" school.

    I'm in the "fly better than your opponent, out-think your opponent, bluff your opponent, and fly missions (which aren't about shooting)" school.

    When I fly a two-seater, it almost always has a mission; bomb something, or photograph something. That's how to win.
    To win, I have to escape the enemy, not chase him and shoot him down on every card!

    There's nothing at all wrong with your approach - it just differs from mine that's all
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  21. #21

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    I'm in the "fly better than your opponent, out-think your opponent, bluff your opponent, and fly missions (which aren't about shooting)" school.
    Good for you Tim. I save that for 3D chess.

    Kirk.

  22. #22

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    i would disagree that an immalmann mimics a hammerhead stall. the immalman is more like a climbing banking turn and doesnt bleed off all energy, just redirects it.
    a hammerhead stall loses all energy to the point of the aircraft literally falling backwards. while ive heard of it being used during a 1 on 1 fight during ww2, i dont think most pilots would choose to do this in combat.

  23. #23

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    I know this was discussed way back: IIRC, the big difference is that with the HHS, you end up reversed at about your same altitude, wherein, with the Immelman or split-S, you gain or lose altitude.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  24. #24

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    Fascinating discussion chaps, just the sort of thing we should be talking about. I have fully briefed all my Bristol pilots

    Never Knowingly Undergunned !!

  25. #25

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    so what happens if youve ended your set on a straight, and the gunner fires and you decide to do an immelmann for your next move?
    Really? Is that an official thing from Andrea? I don't remember it being an issue for him when we played at Doncaster, indeed I don't remember it coming up in any of the Aerodrome games I've ever played in with 2 seaters. It seems like an unnecessary complication for little benefit.

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Really? Is that an official thing from Andrea? I don't remember it being an issue for him when we played at Doncaster, indeed I don't remember it coming up in any of the Aerodrome games I've ever played in with 2 seaters. It seems like an unnecessary complication for little benefit.
    It's a basic rule for two seaters DM (p.24 in my book) but is often forgotten or not played for the reasons stated and your conclusion !

    "He is wise who watches"

  27. #27

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    Good compromise would be to allow firing during first card, and disallow it during second and third card. No extra book keeping.

  28. #28

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    Can jammed machineguns be repired during the sequence?

  29. #29

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    In normal, open gameplay it seems reasonable to me, yes.

    In my "no shooting" interpretation, the gunner has a locked-in-position gun ring, with the breeches in easy reach, and available as a steady object to hang on to.

    He can focus on the task in hand, ignoring enemy aircraft.



    I personally would like to disallow it, with a hunkered-down strapped-in gunner proving unable to reach the gun breeches, but that is apparently too restrictive for other players' tastes!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Can jammed machineguns be repired during the sequence?
    I'd say no, in a spilt S the machine is rolling onto it's back before diving away & levelling out. I can't see a gunner being able to hang on for grim death and un-jam a gun while all that's going on so I'd agree with Tim on his personal preference.

    "He is wise who watches"

  31. #31

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    I have fully briefed all my Bristol pilots
    Hahahaha - I was just thinking, as I browsed my way through this discussion, uh oh, Chris loves Bristols - that's him screwed if two seaters should ever be banned from perfoming Immelman turns

    Only joking by the way - I have absolutely no opinion on the subject whatsoever - happy to use any rules for any game, so long as all players abide by them at the time



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