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Thread: Bf110 vs Spifire and Imelmann

  1. #1

    Default Bf110 vs Spifire and Imelmann

    Hi all,

    I've been playing some solo fights between a Bf110 and a Spitfire. Bf110 controlled by solo app (with altitude rules).

    While I'm definitely not a realism fetishist I admit that nevertheless it did annoy me to see how super well the Bf110 performs compared to the historic situation. It's quite hard to dodge the front cannons of happily imelmanning Bf110 AND to maneuver into a firing position. Gosh! If in 1940 they had used this tactics, they would have won the battle!?! :-)

    Browsing thru old posts, I found a simple house rule that disallows shooting at the reversal card. I tried some runs adopting this rule and of course the situation improves in favor of the spit.

    Still there must be something more. Concerning Imelmanns the game distinguishes only between two kind of planes: Those that can and those that cannot.
    The maneuver takes always 3 cards, no matter what plane type.
    I have no idea about the flight characteristics of the real planes. I may be wrong but I guess that Bf110 would take longer than a more agile plane to complete the maneuver.
    If this is true this could be represented by requiring 4 cards instead of 3, e.g, 1 more straight at the beginning or auto-repeating the reversal card (= stay at the reversal location for the next movement phase).
    I have not tested this ideas yet.

    What do you think?

    Fabrizio

  2. #2

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    I have the same feeling about the Bf110. Its too powerful with the Immelmann and no restrictions. In the WWI rules the rear gunner can't shoot on any of the 3 cards making up an Immelmann. I would use the same restrictions with planes like the Bf110.

    Spitfires should be able to fly circles around a 110 but allowing the 110 to Immelmann and shoot just eats Spitfires for lunch.

  3. #3

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    The problem is that as humans looking at the table "I can see for miles and miles and miles", to quote the song. Fighter pilots used clouds and the sun to ambush opponents from behind. Also, use wingmen to attack from the side.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    The problem is that as humans looking at the table "I can see for miles and miles and miles", to quote the song. Fighter pilots used clouds and the sun to ambush opponents from behind. Also, use wingmen to attack from the side.
    Agree. War game generals are like chess players, no fog of war, no fog, no clouds.
    Still I believe even in a fair no-surprise setup the Bf would be knocked down most of the time. I will probably go for the no-shooting rule when I explain the game to my folks, after corona.

  5. #5

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    having flown one in a scenario at origins i agree theyre overrated. definitely felt too sportscar vs family station wagon.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    having flown one in a scenario at origins i agree theyre overrated. definitely felt too sportscar vs family station wagon.
    I know the battle you're talking about - I was your opponent!

    As I recall, somehow you and I had gotten lined up dead-on nose-to-nose with nobody else around us, and we ended up each pulling Immelmanns one after the other - do you recall how long that went on before one of us broke off?

  7. #7

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    I also played in that game and flew the Spit vs Dave (Caveman) in his Me110. I didn't feel like I had the more maneuverable plane at all.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I also played in that game and flew the Spit vs Dave (Caveman) in his Me110. I didn't feel like I had the more maneuverable plane at all.
    Exactly. Phillip in his 110 was turning just as well as I was in the Spitfire, which is how we ended up in the Immelmann Duel. I think the idea you told me about where the 110 can't Immelmann and has to play a straight between turns to reflect the real-life less maneuverability of the 110 sounded good.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    the idea you told me about where the 110 can't Immelmann and has to play a straight between turns to reflect the real-life less maneuverability of the 110 sounded good.
    I guess I would need to buy a larger table

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsalt View Post
    I know the battle you're talking about - I was your opponent!

    As I recall, somehow you and I had gotten lined up dead-on nose-to-nose with nobody else around us, and we ended up each pulling Immelmanns one after the other - do you recall how long that went on before one of us broke off?



    i vaguely remember playing the game, but asking me details of the game of almost 2 years ago is expecting quite a bit of my memory lol. my main impression was that "wow! why didnt the germans build only m3 110s!" even though i knew they really werent as effective as they seemed to be in game.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    i vaguely remember playing the game, but asking me details of the game of almost 2 years ago is expecting quite a bit of my memory lol. my main impression was that "wow! why didnt the germans build only m3 110s!" even though i knew they really werent as effective as they seemed to be in game.
    If the Me 110 was as good in real life as the one you were using it's the only fighter they should have built!



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