B17-D Gunnery Arcs

[Dak21]

Does anyone have any information on the B17-D gunnery arcs. From what I can see, it had;
- Port and Starboard 50 Cal waist gunners (60 degree arc)
- A single aft facing dorsal 50 Cal gun for the radio operator (60 degree arc at higher targets only)
- Port and Starboard 50 Cal cheek guns (45 degree arc)
- A single aft facing 50 Cal ventral gun. (60 degree aft facing arc at lower targets only)

Everything I read talks about a single 30 cal. I can't seem to figure where that gun was.

Does what I have above seem about right? It is pretty much guessing using a combination of written documents and poor pictures that don't show the guns very well.

Any help would be much appreciated!

[OldGuy59]

I'm gonna go with something like this:


All the arcs should be A/A, but the Dorsal and Ventral could have been B/A on some versions. If we are talking RAF Fortress I's then all are A/A, as even dual .30 cals were not big enough to go to B damage.

PS: Depending on individual research, there could have been one or two .30 cal MGs in the nose. There was a time when the nose had up to six sockets fitted to different windows, to which the .30 cal could be moved and fired. So, individual planes may have acquired more MGs to place in the sockets when in the air. This would save time moving a single gun around. Also, depending on what source, there were dual guns in the ventral position, with all other places being single mountings, for a total of 5 .50 cal MGs.

Firing arcs in the nose could be altered to make them more "flexible", but then you'd have to house rule the movement of the gun, or at a minimum the crew member. Moving the gun could be two/three phases of fire, or if you assume more than one MG, an intermediate phase for moving just the crew member.

Note: A very early version of a Wings of War card for the B-17D can be found here: WWS USA planes by Max Headroom - B-17D

[zippyfusenet]

Found this profile of B-17D The Swoose on the net. It shows what I think is a single .30 MG mounted in the tip of the nose cone. I see this nose MG in a number of profile drawings, but not in any photos. I suspect it was usually stowed until needed.

I generally agree with OldGuy's draft of the fire arcs, but I don't see the cheek .50 MGs on that card.

[OldGuy59]

Found this profile of B-17D The Swoose on the net. It shows what I think is a single .30 MG mounted in the tip of the nose cone. I see this nose MG in a number of profile drawings, but not in any photos. I suspect it was usually stowed until needed.

I generally agree with OldGuy's draft of the fire arcs, but I don't see the cheek .50 MGs on that card.

That is correct, as I couldn't find any evidence of their existence, nor location. Looking at the Swoose, I can't even see any guns in the other positions, either. Max Headroom has some guns in staggered mountings in the nose, and shows an additional forward arc for what I assume are the cheek-mounted MGs. Pilot-fired? I have no idea.

[zippyfusenet]

The only book I looked at tonight is the old Jablonski Flying Fortress. Jablonski gives the defensive armament for the B-17C and D models as 6 X .50 MG + 1 X .30 MG. in the Swoose profile, I think the small blue window with a dot in the center immediately behind the nose cone is a cheek mount for a .50 MG. It looks like this is where MaxH sited the cheek MGs. I take your point that there were variations in the armament rig. I found the below profiles, which show two (.30?) MGs mounted in the nose, as well as what I take to be cheek mounts.

[flash]

This cutaway of a B.17C shows the nose gun as a .30 cal and if you look at some nose art shots many show the gun in position. A nose shot of the Swoose post war shows the multi port nose Mike mentions.

Try again ! I downloaded this & you can zoom right in on the detail.


This is not the original Dave but a close up of the area in question - different nose plexiglas to the above, maybe an E ?


Gun mounts in the nose plexiglas can be seen here.

[Dak21]

Hey Flash, no picture came through on your post. Would love to see it.

[Dak21]

The only book I looked at tonight is the old Jablonski Flying Fortress. Jablonski gives the defensive armament for the B-17C and D models as 6 X .50 MG + 1 X .30 MG. in the Swoose profile, I think the small blue window with a dot in the center immediately behind the nose cone is a cheek mount for a .50 MG. It looks like this is where MaxH sited the cheek MGs. I take your point that there were variations in the armament rig. I found the below profiles, which show two (.30?) MGs mounted in the nose, as well as what I take to be cheek mounts.

Great pictures. This seems to match what I found in writing.

[Dak21]

The next question is were there crewmen to operate all of these cheek guns in the nose, or should only one be allowed to fire at a time?

[OldGuy59]

Images, on a model, of sockets in the nose windows:

I can see three in this image. Two on the nose glazing, one lower right and one upper left (as crew would see looking forward), and one on the second fuselage window.


Just visible in the above image, but in the first fuselage window, just aft of the nose glazing.

So, with the above, that indicates four possible positions for MGs. How many were installed, and how many were 'movable'? If a plane were under viscious assault, one of the node guns could be manned by the bombadier, and one could by manned by the copilot?

More research...

[flash]

The next question is were there crewmen to operate all of these cheek guns in the nose, or should only one be allowed to fire at a time?

Fixed the other pic & added a couple more. Looks like Bombadier & Nav would operate any guns ?

[OldGuy59]

I will try the other pic again - it's there but not showing ?!

Unfortunately, the above image is a crew position diagram of a B-17G, not the version under discusion.

[flash]

Unfortunately, the above image is a crew position diagram of a B-17G, not the version under discusion.

Well if you can find one Mike post it by all means but the crew in the nose is the same - Bombardier & Nav. I thought Dave would be able to figure out there were two men to operate the nose guns from that.

[flash]

This is a nice shot or two Dave:







Check this link: http://legendsintheirowntime.com/LiT.../B17_nose.html

[Diamondback]

The next question is were there crewmen to operate all of these cheek guns in the nose, or should only one be allowed to fire at a time?

Two tops--the crew distribution, other than tail gunner and the B-40's extra gunners, is the same across the whole B-17 family. Two nose gunners at most, only one after passing IP and entering the bomb run because the other has to run the plane through the Norden bombsight.

Also, on the Late F and G, you can't use the chin turret and Norden at the same time because the controls are too close together.

[OldGuy59]

Well if you can find one Mike post it by all means but the crew in the nose is the same - Bombardier & Nav. I thought Dave would be able to figure out there were two men to operate the nose guns from that.

I haven't been able to find a number of crew or a description of the positions, let alone a drawing. The plan view drawings I can find are pretty low res. And my reference library is closed to the public and the volunteers, so that source is unavailable, too.

[Jager]

PS: Depending on individual research, there could have been one or two .30 cal MGs in the nose. There was a time when the nose had up to six sockets fitted to different windows, to which the .30 cal could be moved and fired. So, individual planes may have acquired more MGs to place in the sockets when in the air. This would save time moving a single gun around. Also, depending on what source, there were dual guns in the ventral position, with all other places being single mountings, for a total of 5 .50 cal MGs.

Firing arcs in the nose could be altered to make them more "flexible", but then you'd have to house rule the movement of the gun, or at a minimum the crew member. Moving the gun could be two/three phases of fire, or if you assume more than one MG, an intermediate phase for moving just the crew member.

I know from some research on the early B-26s, they had 2 mounts for a 30cal in the cheek, but only carried 1, so the mount had to be picked before takeoff. Given that the browning 30cal AN still weighed (after lightening) 20+ pounds, and you have a belt of ammo attached, you are not moving that around a tight aircraft. I would say that you pick your mount for the game. Oh, and putting in two, adds weight, and makes the area even more crowded.
Karl

[OldGuy59]

Looking at this photo, I can perhaps see a .50 cal MG stowed on the upper left, definitely a .50 cal MG on the upper right, both in the staggered positions indicated in the model image I posted for the B-17D. Looking at the nose glazing, I can see two gun sockets in the upper left and right (circles), with a .30 cal MG stowed on the lower right side (no ammo can in the silver holder on the left side of the MG.

Now that I look at the model images I posted earlier, it is possible (just) to make out a silver circle in the right upper side of the nose glazing, in the same position as the photo above. So, possibly three positions for the .30 cal MG, depending on where the gunner wanted to shoot. How easy would it be to move the gun? No idea. Could it be done? Probably, if someone's life depended on it being moved.

So, if we went with peak battle readiness, at least three arcs on the nose of a B-17D, if not five. Two fixed .50 cal MG cheek positions, with one movable .30 cal MG, usable only if readied, and a four-phase interval (8 seconds) if you want to change the .30 cal MG arc?

[Diamondback]

You're still at a problem of three guns but only two gunners. Guys in back are gonna be too busy to come all the way up front, and it's not exactly roomy up there as it is even with only two... in fact, it's close enough I wouldn't even require a turn off switching between nose guns assuming the .30's pre-placed.

[OldGuy59]

So, something more like this:


Number 1 arc is one MG (A/A), pick an arc, but only one can fire at a time, and changing takes three to four phases (you choose). Controlled by the Bombadier, and can't fire if the plane is on a bombing run.
Number 2 and 3 arcs (A/A) are manned by one gunner (the Navigator), choose which fires in a given phase, but not both(unless the Bombadier doesn't fire Arc 1, and isn't bombing).
Two crew as Pilot and Co-Pilot.
Number 4 Dorsal arc (A/A) is controlled by the Radio Operator or the Flight Engineer, depending on the crew available
Number 5 Left Waist (A/A) is controlled by a Gunner. If either of the Waist Gunners are injured, the other Gunner can swap in one phase, but only one arc fires in a given phase.
Number 6 Right Waist (A/A) is controlled by a Gunner (Second Engineer?).
Number 7 Ventral Rear arc (B/A) is controlled by a separate Gunner. Perhaps a two phase swap with Waist arcs could be managed.

Just my thoughts, and open to other, more informed, opinions.

[Dak21]

This looks really good Mike. I agree with your assessment of how the guns would be handled as well.

Part of me wonders if for game purposes, Arc #1 could be simplified to the center-most one. Printed on a 110x80mm card, it would be really hard to see all those small arcs.

[OldGuy59]

This looks really good Mike. I agree with your assessment of how the guns would be handled as well.

Part of me wonders if for game purposes, Arc #1 could be simplified to the center-most one. Printed on a 110x80mm card, it would be really hard to see all those small arcs.

Simplifying the arc is what I posted first, but I didn't think it was well received.

[flash]

A Luftwaffe model used to study how to attack the B-17 bomber, probably won't help you much but looks cool.



German study of the B-17 Flying Fortress fire power based of B.17F

I had to re-post a pic that didn't come out in my post above & highlight the link to the B.17 nose.
Think I'd be inclined to stick the .30cal in one position and leave it there, can't see it being moved about in combat, and mark the arc on the card a/b/c so one can be selected for the game.

[milcoll73]

b-17 nose armament was an evolution. plus gi ingenuity led to many modifications to add firepower (including a d with a fixed forward firing .50 under the pilots window above the navigators position for the pilot, an F with a 20mm and a g with 6 chin turret guns!!![though these were deemed unsuccessful and not adopted])
the model 299 (prototype) and yb-17 (initial test run) only had a single .30 in a small unpowered "turret" in the top of the nose glazing that was found unsatisfactory.
the b-17b had single .30 in a flexible ball mount and no cheek guns. though many bs were upgraded to c/d configuration later on.

the b-17c and d had a .30 in the nose with multiple ball mounts (note the one in the upper window) though, in combat this was often upgraded to a .50 with internal bracing added. and .50s in the cheeks.

heres a graphic showing some of the evolution.

only 2 guns in the nose could effectively be manned at once with little chance of getting more then 1 gun per target due to space constrictions. though theres no reason 2 different targets couldnt be engaged as long as they were in the same general quadrant. i think the aggregate front arc with the 2 target rule would be the most workable. this is sort of what ares did with the b-17f memphis belle (though they got the armament wrong [ie it had 4 .50s mounted 2 in separate ball mounts in the nose and 1 in each cheek).

[Dak21]

Very helpful pictures milcoll. Thank you very much! The one with the bombs on the ground in front of the plane clearly illustrates the issue at hand.

[Dak21]

I’m going to go with one fixed forward arc for the 30 cal with two cheek mounted 50’s. Two targets engaged at a time. I’ll be posting the cards in the Painting Showcase when complete. One in nature metal, and one in OD. Thanks again to all for the excellent information!

[abovetheclouds]

Excellent work by everybody. Looking forward to Dave's new B-17 cards. Any chance I could get some of this insightful input from anybody on my B-24D card thread next?

[OldGuy59]

Nice detail drawing for crew positions on the B-17D:

[Dak21]

Fantastic Mike!

[OldGuy59]

[Edit: Now the crew match the Firing Arcs. Sorry.]

[abovetheclouds]

Thanks for the new B-17D crew card Mike. Excellent work, as usual.

[OldGuy59]

I wasn't going to do a Plane Card, as I remember someone saying they were going to do their own. Anyway, the Plane card is added above.

Stats may be a bit off, but the B-17D isn't in the Unofficial Stats file. It should be close.

[OldGuy59]

Apologies. The Crew positions were OK, but didn't match the Firing Arcs on the Plane Card. Now, the swap positions in the nose are indicated on the Management Card.