Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Ki-49 Helen card

  1. #1

    Default Ki-49 Helen card

    I just picked up a couple of Ki-49's. I couldn't find any custom cards in the Aerodrome files, nor could I find any mention of which maneuver deck to use. Has anybody created a control card for this plane yet? Any ideas on which deck would be the most appropriate to use? Thanks in advance for any helpful info.

  2. #2

    Default

    Paul,
    I'm gonna say you are out of luck on that plane. Are these planes in 144th or 200th scale?

    Speed looks similar to a B-25, so perhaps an XB deck wouldn't be too far off.

    There isn't anything in the Unofficial Stats Committee spread sheet, so that may mean that it wasn't on anyone's radar.

    I don't even have a file folder on my computer, so I haven't even looked at this plane in speculation.

    PS:
    KI-49-I and IIa
    1× 20 mm (0.787 in) Ho-1 cannon in the rear cockpit (C/A) and 5 × 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Type 89 machine guns ( A/A: one nose, two waist, one ventral, and one tail).
    Ki-49-IIb
    Version of Model 2 with 12.7 mm Ho-103 machine gunes replacing rifle calibre weapons. These would all still be A/A for all arcs as single gun placements.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 04-05-2020 at 01:03.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

    Northern Command Squadron Leader.
    Colonel

    Users Country Flag


    Blog Entries
    10
    Name
    Neil
    Location
    Northumberland
    Sorties Flown
    11,652
    Join Date
    Jan 2013

    Default

    Its similar to the Ki-21 aircraft, perhaps 20mph difference in speed. Armament is roughly the same although the mg's were uprated from 7.7mm to 12.7mm (might be slightly off in my memory there).

    So I would fly it as a Ki-21 iia (which this aircraft replaced) from the unofficial chart>

    Deck XB (Ki-21 iia had a 20mph greater cruising speed and a 5mph greater max speed)
    Damage 22 (Could possibly be more as it was armoured and had self sealing tanks).
    Ceiling 12 (Could fly 700m higher than ki-21)
    Climb 3 (was under engined)
    Base bomber

    Specifications (Ki-49-IIa)[edit]

    Data from Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War,[9] Axis Aircraft of World War II[10]
    General characteristics

    • Crew: 8 {pilot, co-pilot, bombardier, navigator, radio 0operator/gunner and 3x gunners
    • Length: 16.5 m (54 ft 2 in)
    • Wingspan: 20.424 m (67 ft 0 in)
    • Height: 4.25 m (13 ft 11 in)
    • Wing area: 69.05 m2 (743.2 sq ft)
    • Empty weight: 6,530 kg (14,396 lb)
    • Gross weight: 10,680 kg (23,545 lb)
    • Max takeoff weight: 11,400 kg (25,133 lb)
    • Powerplant: 2 × Nakajima Ha-109 (1,450 hp Army Type 2 fourteen-cylinder air-cooled radial) 14-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engines, 1,100 kW (1,500 hp) each for take-off

    969 kW (1,300 hp) at 5,280 m (17,323 ft)

    • Propellers: 3-bladed constant-speed metal propellers

    Performance

    • Maximum speed: 492 km/h (306 mph, 266 kn) at 5,000 m (16,404 ft)
    • Cruise speed: 350 km/h (220 mph, 190 kn) at 3,000 m (9,843 ft)
    • Range: 2,000 km (1,200 mi, 1,100 nmi)
    • Ferry range: 2,950 km (1,830 mi, 1,590 nmi)
    • Service ceiling: 9,300 m (30,500 ft)
    • Time to altitude: 5,000 m (16,404 ft) in 13 minutes 39 seconds
    • Wing loading: 154.7 kg/m2 (31.7 lb/sq ft)
    • Power/mass: 0.2108 kW/kg (0.1282 hp/lb)

    Armament

    • Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) Ho-1 cannon in the rear cockpit and 5 × 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Type 89 machine guns (one nose, two waist, one ventral, and one tail).
    • Bombs: 1,000 kg (2,205 lb) bombload



    Specifications (Ki-21-IIb)[edit]

    Data from The Concise Guide to Axis Aircraft of World War II[14]
    General characteristics

    • Crew: 5-7
    • Length: 16 m (52 ft 6 in)
    • Wingspan: 22.5 m (73 ft 10 in)
    • Height: 4.85 m (15 ft 11 in)
    • Wing area: 69.9 m2 (752 sq ft)
    • Empty weight: 6,070 kg (13,382 lb)
    • Gross weight: 10,600 kg (23,369 lb)
    • Powerplant: 2 × Mitsubishi Ha101 14-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engine, 1,100 kW (1,500 hp) each (long designation Army Type 100 1,450hp Air Cooled Radial)
    • Propellers: 3-bladed variable-pitch propellers

    Performance

    • Maximum speed: 485 km/h (301 mph, 262 kn)
    • Cruise speed: 380 km/h (240 mph, 210 kn)
    • Range: 2,700 km (1,700 mi, 1,500 nmi)
    • Service ceiling: 10,000 m (33,000 ft)
    • Time to altitude: 6,000 m (19,685 ft) in 13 minutes 13 seconds

    Armament

    See you on the Dark Side......

  4. #4
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

    Default

    Thank you to everybody for the helpful information. I can now put this plane in flight. Since I have absolutely no skill to paint the available unpainted preferred 1:200 scale third party minis, I've decided to pick up some 1:144 scale pre-painted models. I hadn't planned on mixing scales, but I love playing this game, and want to add as much variety as I can to the airplane mix.

  6. #6

    Default

    Post a top-down image, Paul.

    I might be able to do something better for you, than the Ki-21 cards above.

    PS: Might it look like this? 1/144 Nakajima Ki-49 Donryu "Helen" - by Altaya (Ixo)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	0328-Nakajima ki.49 Donryu Helen img6.jpg 
Views:	63 
Size:	44.0 KB 
ID:	284744

    3rd Chutai - 61 Sentai - Imperial Japanese Army
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 04-05-2020 at 09:17.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

    Default

    The easy part done...
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ki-58_3rdChutai.jpg 
Views:	60 
Size:	46.4 KB 
ID:	284745
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  8. #8

    Default

    Yes it does, except that the one you posted is a much nicer model than the F-toys model I picked up. If you could produce the appropriate cards for any version, I would definitely appreciate it. I noticed also that the # of crew members increased from the 5-7 in the Ki-21 to a full 8 member crew in the Ki-49.

  9. #9

    Default

    2nd Chutai, 74th Sentai:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ki-49_2ndChutai.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	59.6 KB 
ID:	284749

    How to figure out the firing arcs. First, where are the guns?

    Where are the crew stationed in the plane?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	9795666174_844f13352f_h.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	33.7 KB 
ID:	284751
    All the crew, but are they in transit positions or in their battle positions?

    Is this an example of battle positions?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Nakajima_Kiー49_Helen_Crew.png 
Views:	49 
Size:	243.7 KB 
ID:	284752

    And why have a ring mount for the 20mm cannon in the dorsal position? The drawing in the bottom right of this diagram, as well as other images seen today, gives me the impression that the gun had a very wide firing arc. Perhaps more than 180 degrees to the rear.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Nakajima_Kiー49_Helen03.jpg 
Views:	52 
Size:	103.5 KB 
ID:	284753
    However, I couldn't find any images or drawings of this aircraft in its battle configuration. Only one or two showed the positions of the waist guns, as the model instructions above illustrate. Nothing on the Dorsal position, other than with the canopy down in the transit position. And we all know how badly this affected the interpretation of the He.111's dorsal firing arc, until further research uncovered that the battle position of the He.111 dorsal canopy was far to the front, allowing nearly 270 degrees of arc on the level.

    If the Ki-49 canopy is a solid one-piece canopy, and hinged at the back, then it wouldn't fold up and over the top of the fuselage, and this would seriously affect the upper arc of the rear dorsal turret. Thoughts? Any other documentation out there?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

    Default

    Found these images:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	00024783.jpg 
Views:	52 
Size:	68.0 KB 
ID:	284754
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	00024788.jpg 
Views:	51 
Size:	61.3 KB 
ID:	284755

    The above images appear to indicate that the canopies disappeared.

    From a video game screen capture (not mine), the canopy hinged up, and then probably slid back into the fuselage in front of the dorsal position.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ki499.jpg 
Views:	52 
Size:	242.4 KB 
ID:	284756

    This would allow, at least, a 180 degree rear arc, excluding the tail blind spot. If the mounting rose above the transit level, as did the He.111 mounting, this gun could traverse more than 180 degrees on the level, and could possibly have had a 360 degree arc above. Without conclusive evidence, I'd probably only give the Ki-49 the full rear 180 degree arc.

    Based on anecdotal information I have read today on tactics of attacking a Ki-49, they did say the Ki-49 could challenge a fighter in a turning fight, and for the fighter not to engage in this. The fighter would be put in a vulnerable position as the bomber turned and banked, giving the cannon a nice target to hit as the fighter attempted to turn in on the bomber. The best approach was from the lower rear, if possible. This would somewhat back up the limiting of the dorsal arc.

    Still, wouldn't mind some confirmation, if there is anyone wanting to jump in.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 04-05-2020 at 15:16.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  11. #11

    Default

    I think giving the dorsal gun 180 is a bit too generous.
    He's my take on it:
    FG: A/A 11:00 to 1:00 level only
    LG: A/A 8:00 to 10:00 low to high
    RG: A/A 2:00 to 4:00 low to high
    Tail gun: C/A rear arc Level only
    Dorsal gun: C/A 4:00 to 8:00 level to high w/ blindspot
    Ventral gun: A/A, Rear arc low only

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  12. #12

    Default

    The amount of research that you have completed so far is absolutely amazing to me. And I am fascinated by all of the information that you have managed to discover. It makes me appreciate the amount of work involved in game development in order to achieve as much historical accuracy as feasibly possible. I am in awe.

  13. #13

    Default

    OK. So this isn't exactly 'In Accordance With' the stats provided above, but my estimate of the firing arcs:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WGS-Nakajima-Ki49_Plane_2Chutai.jpg 
Views:	40 
Size:	130.3 KB 
ID:	284812
    [EDIT: Changed the Dorsal firing arc to match historical data. See Post #14 below.]

    Notes:
    1. The amount of crew onboard would suggest that there is enough to man every gun. However, I don't think there would be enough room in the waist position for two gunners, without them getting in each other's way. The ventral gunner is already underfoot, as well.

    2. Even if the plane up-gunned the MGs, their damage wouldn't change with the current game mechanics. Only if they went to dual 12.7mms would they go to B.

    3. The XB deck is not maneuverable, something my research turned up as being very good, even as good as to be on par with fighters, despite being slow. So, the speed of the XB deck might be accurate, but the lack of maneuver options in that deck may be a detriment to this plane's actual performance. That being said, I have no idea what the maneuver deck should be.

    Management Card to follow in a few days.

    PS: With the images posted below, the Dorsal Turret arc is way off, and should be much wider to the right. Also, the blind spot should be reduced on the left side to just off the tail.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 04-06-2020 at 09:58.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  14. #14

    Default

    Found an interesting source for some images when I went googling the Ki-49 Dorsal Turret.

    I was going to do the same graphical analysis of the Ki-49 turret as I did on the He.111. However, someone beat me to that.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ki-49DorsalArc.jpg 
Views:	49 
Size:	135.0 KB 
ID:	284760
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	niWSbDK.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	45.6 KB 
ID:	284761

    From the original IJAAF Maintenance/Ops Manuals, the following information is provided:
    Dorsal Turret - Field of fire:
    Gun elevation: +90°
    Gun depression: -27°
    Gun traverse range: -155 / +83°

    Source: Forum War Thunder - Ki-49's Rear Dorsal Turret Has the Wrong Field of Fire/

    In that same IJAAF manual, I extracted this drawing of the Dorsal Canopy Retraction Mechanism:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ki-49_DorsalCanopy.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	56.9 KB 
ID:	284762

    As you can see in the drawing above, the entire canopy is retracted out of the way, as indicated in the images I posted above (#10^. Not the screen capture image, showing a canopy only partly retracted). Sort of like a Thunderbird Power Convertible.
    Link: Youtube.com: Ford Thunderbird Convertible -WATCH AS THE TOP GOES IN THE TRUNK AUTOMATICALLY

    Additional image (Source appears to be a very poor photocopy, sorry):
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	4540-186.jpg 
Views:	47 
Size:	75.8 KB 
ID:	284772
    Note: Technical Air Intelligence Center Manual, published 1945-06-01
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 04-06-2020 at 09:30.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  15. #15

    Default

    You've discovered some excellent documents. The diagram of the fully retractable top in addition to the photo of the in-flight open canopy was very helpful. I can still remember the fascination I had when I saw a Ford Skyliner with its retractable hardtop many years ago. The page from the Technical Air Intelligence Center Manual contained quite a bit of useful information too. Crew placement and battle station movement is still an interesting question given all of the points that you have previously mentioned.

  16. #16

    Default

    This:
    www.youtube.com - 1958 FORD FAIRLANE 500 SKYLINER CONVERTIBLE!

    Soo cool!

    Redoing the Dorsal arc above...
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  17. #17

    Default

    Thanks! So nice. Plus, I have always been partial to the appearance of quad headlights, any shape of fins, and lots of chrome.
    Looking forward to your new cards! Over the past couple of years, I have downloaded all of the WWII Pacific Theater cards from the Aerodrome Files Section. While I was downloading them, I never paid any attention to who created them. I have become an avid fan of the game which includes the enjoyment of every official WoW/WoG release, but which also includes the frustration with manufacturer's production lags. I have become extremely appreciative of the Aerodrome community, and their support of this game. And so, Mike, If you had a hand in developing any of those Aerodrome files, I would like to thank you.

  18. #18

    Default

    And the Management Card for the Ki-49:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WGS-Nakajima-Ki49_Mgmt_2Chutai.jpg 
Views:	41 
Size:	137.6 KB 
ID:	284814
    [EDIT: Renumbered the Waist Gunner positions]
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by abovetheclouds View Post
    Thanks! So nice. Plus, I have always been partial to the appearance of quad headlights, any shape of fins, and lots of chrome.
    Looking forward to your new cards! Over the past couple of years, I have downloaded all of the WWII Pacific Theater cards from the Aerodrome Files Section. While I was downloading them, I never paid any attention to who created them. I have become an avid fan of the game which includes the enjoyment of every official WoW/WoG release, but which also includes the frustration with manufacturer's production lags. I have become extremely appreciative of the Aerodrome community, and their support of this game. And so, Mike, If you had a hand in developing any of those Aerodrome files, I would like to thank you.
    Paul,
    I've done a few, but not all. Also, I haven't uploaded most of them to the Files Section, bad me. You could find some of my work in my albums, but, again, not necessarily all. Again, bad me. Check posts on the Official Painting threads, too, as I've been known to clutter them up with card production. Thanks for keeping this thread separate from the Painting threads, as it turned out to need a bit of "development" that didn't belong in a painting thread.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #20

    Default

    Thank you for all your effort. I have already downloaded and printed the excellent cards. Next thing for me to do is have Keith create a couple of custom bases. I found your albums, and downloaded a bunch of your other cards too. Thanks for the hint about searching the painting threads for custom cards too. Since I have decided to combine some 1:144 scale planes with my 1:200 scale WoG planes, I will definitely be searching for, and downloading plenty more custom cards. It was a total joy to see the creative R&D process involved in using historical data to create accurate custom cards for this game.

  21. #21

    Default


    Thanks to everybody for their input on this thread. Thanks to Mike for creating the cards, and to Keith for creating my custom bases.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ki-49 (2).jpg  

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by abovetheclouds View Post
    The amount of research that you have completed so far is absolutely amazing to me. And I am fascinated by all of the information that you have managed to discover. It makes me appreciate the amount of work involved in game development in order to achieve as much historical accuracy as feasibly possible. I am in awe.
    I am thinking the same thing. I have so many questions, but don't want to hijack this thread. Wow, outstanding work here!



Similar Missions

  1. California Help I lost a card Need the sharp right turn card N deck.
    By Legendmaker in forum US Wing
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-17-2017, 22:01
  2. One Card Planning versus Three Card Planning
    By Stumptonian in forum WGF: General Discussions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-28-2016, 02:22
  3. WGF DH5 card
    By Boney10 in forum Hobby Room
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-19-2015, 06:31
  4. P36 Card
    By FLt Brown in forum WGS: General Discussions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-08-2012, 17:37
  5. My first Card!
    By The Cowman in forum Hobby Room
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-29-2010, 15:33

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •