Looking for info on 85 Sqn

**tonyc206** · 01-10-2011 07:53

I'm trying to find as much info as possible on the SE5a's of 85 Sqn. Already spoken to Dom S and have the easily available photos.

What I'm looking for is any ID/serial numbers and corresponding flight letter etc

Thanks

Tony

**McKeever** · 01-10-2011 10:19

Here is a little bit of help. Not much info on letter designations, but serials for a few of the SEs of 85 Squadron. Information is taken from Above the Trenches by Christopher Shores, Norman Franks and Russell Guest.

Maj. W.A. Bishop: C1904 (Letter Z), C6940
Maj. E. Mannock: E1295
Capt. S.B. Horn: C1904, D6027
Capt. W.H. Longton: D6026, D6927, D6963
Capt. M.C. McGregor: C1143, C1931, C6472, D6923, D6955, E3922
Capt. A.C. Randall: B7870, C1928, C1931, C6454, E5487
Lieut. A. Cunningham-Reid: C1922, D6859
Lieut. J.W. Warner: C1678, C1922, E3922

Hope that helps a bit.

Mac

**gully_raker** · 01-11-2011 00:49

Ltn. Elliot White Springs flew S/No.D6851 Letter X in 85 Sqd St Omer June 1918
McGregor flew in A Flight as Flight Leader
Horn who was also a Flight Leader took over Bishops C1904 when Bishop left in late June & claimed 5 more victories with it taking his own score to 19.

Bit more info that I hope is helpful.

**tonyc206** · 01-11-2011 02:09

Very helpful chaps. Thank you very much

Tony

**Dom S** · 01-11-2011 02:29

You can almost certainly get a full list of serial numbers by having a rummage at the PRO at Kew, as they should have the squadron's war diary, which lists the serials and pilots for every sortie. That said it's of limited use as those records don't note the aircraft letter, so you're back to digging for photos to match them up.

Dom.

**tonyc206** · 01-12-2011 14:07

Originally Posted by Dom S

You can almost certainly get a full list of serial numbers by having a rummage at the PRO at Kew, as they should have the squadron's war diary, which lists the serials and pilots for every sortie. That said it's of limited use as those records don't note the aircraft letter, so you're back to digging for photos to match them up.

Dom.

Excellent idea Dom. It's only a few miles away from where I work too. As long as I can get the ID numbers I can make historical decals for the Sqn's planes and just pair them with any letters for semi-historically accurate planes

**Dom S** · 01-12-2011 14:29

An example of what they're like here:

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war...p?levelID=1425

Sadly we Brits haven't digitised ours, but the above gives you an idea of what's in them. Although *only* aircraft serials are noted, another section lists new pilots' assignments and inter-flight transfers, so a little sleuthing there should enable you to tally up serial numbers with flights. (Eg. if Lieutenant Crewdson was posted to C flight, and started flying B1234 as a matter of course, we can surmise that B1234 is a C flight machine, and therefore T, U, V, W, X, Y or Z), but you need photos to get any further than that.

**tonyc206** · 01-13-2011 02:07

Originally Posted by Dom S

An example of what they're like here:

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/war...p?levelID=1425

Sadly we Brits haven't digitised ours, but the above gives you an idea of what's in them. Although *only* aircraft serials are noted, another section lists new pilots' assignments and inter-flight transfers, so a little sleuthing there should enable you to tally up serial numbers with flights. (Eg. if Lieutenant Crewdson was posted to C flight, and started flying B1234 as a matter of course, we can surmise that B1234 is a C flight machine, and therefore T, U, V, W, X, Y or Z), but you need photos to get any further than that.

Thanks Dom, that's given me a great place to start. Planning to go to the PRO tomorrow afternoon.

Do you know if they had 6 or 8 planes per flight? I assume all flights used letters as I haven't seen any 85 Sqn planes with numbers

Tony

**Dom S** · 01-13-2011 02:44

All SE5a squadrons had 6 plane flights - the Hispano engine was in pretty much permanent short supply, so the 24 plane squadron was never introduced for the SE5a. 85 squadron's flights were A-F, G-M (no I) and T-Z, with supernumerary aircraft fitting into the gaps, eg. N.

**tonyc206** · 01-13-2011 03:12

Originally Posted by Dom S

All SE5a squadrons had 6 plane flights - the Hispano engine was in pretty much permanent short supply, so the 24 plane squadron was never introduced for the SE5a. 85 squadron's flights were A-F, G-M (no I) and T-Z, with supernumerary aircraft fitting into the gaps, eg. N.

Dom, you are a star as always. Thanks matey

As T-Z is 7 planes I assume that that is because Z was the Squdron Leaders ('Bishop') plane and not part of a flight as such?

**Dom S** · 01-13-2011 04:48

Sorry, no X - not sure why, but a lot of squadrons omitted it. Skipping "I" is fairly obviously to avoid confusion with "1", but no idea why on the X. It may explain why we have a photo of a machine marked both T and X though....

**tonyc206** · 01-13-2011 11:59

Originally Posted by Dom S

Sorry, no X - not sure why, but a lot of squadrons omitted it. Skipping "I" is fairly obviously to avoid confusion with "1", but no idea why on the X. It may explain why we have a photo of a machine marked both T and X though....

Yes I did wonder about that machine in the photo. I think I'll include both X & T, so that people can choose the historical plane or either a full X or full T plane.

**tonyc206** · 01-15-2011 09:15

Originally Posted by McKeever

Here is a little bit of help. Not much info on letter designations, but serials for a few of the SEs of 85 Squadron. Information is taken from Above the Trenches by Christopher Shores, Norman Franks and Russell Guest.

Maj. W.A. Bishop: C1904 (Letter Z), C6940
Maj. E. Mannock: E1295
Capt. S.B. Horn: C1904, D6027
Capt. W.H. Longton: D6026, D6927, D6963
Capt. M.C. McGregor: C1143, C1931, C6472, D6923, D6955, E3922
Capt. A.C. Randall: B7870, C1928, C1931, C6454, E5487
Lieut. A. Cunningham-Reid: C1922, D6859
Lieut. J.W. Warner: C1678, C1922, E3922

Hope that helps a bit.

Mac

Do you have any info on which flights these guys flew in?

Went to PRO yesterday and it was a total washout. No records on 85 Sqn before 1938

**Dom S** · 01-15-2011 09:55

Very odd - they're not a unit I've researched at all, but I'm sure I've seen extracts from their combat reports, which must have come from the old air ministry files / PRO. Ho hum, the joys of having a filing cabinet that big I guess - some things sure as hell get lost

**McKeever** · 01-15-2011 13:50

Originally Posted by tonyc206

Do you have any info on which flights these guys flew in?

Went to PRO yesterday and it was a total washout. No records on 85 Sqn before 1938

Unfortunately no. I've accumulated quite a bit of info on 56 and 60 Squadrons, but nothing much on 85. Nothing prior to 1938? Odd.

Sorry I can't help.

Mac

**Dom S** · 01-15-2011 14:13

Makes sense in a records-keeping sense - 85 only lasted 1917-1919, and was then disbanded. A new 85 was formed by splitting 87 squadron in 1938, so effectively they were starting afresh. Having just had a quick search of the PRO's online catalogue, they have an entry for 85 squadron's combat reports for the latter half of 1918, ( Item reference AIR 1/1227/204/5/2634 ) but nothing else, which is frankly even odder than nothing at all - "we lost the 85 squadron file from WWI" is annoying but explicable, "we have one document" really makes no sense at all.... Murphy's Law of course says it's not the one document that'd be useful - as far as I can remember combat reports were decidedly brief, and just listed aircraft type and pilot.

[Edit: just checked a couple of combat reports I've got on file (40 squadron, but it's a standard form, so at least tells you what info will be on there), and they do list the pilot and aircraft serial number as well as type, but nothing else; they don't identify the ID letter or flight assignment, so no help for this project unfortunately.]

**tonyc206** · 01-16-2011 04:49

Thanks Dom. Any info is good info, even if I can only get a few serial numbers. At least I'll know that those numbers were 85 Sqn and when they flew.

I'll try to get back to the PRO this week

**Dom S** · 01-16-2011 09:43

I think you can book materials before your visit via their website, so might be worth doing that to check they find it first rather than risk another fruitless visit?

**tonyc206** · 02-01-2011 11:59

Originally Posted by Dom S

I think you can book materials before your visit via their website, so might be worth doing that to check they find it first rather than risk another fruitless visit?

Yes you can indeed Dom and after I mastered that skill along with getting enough time to go there and do it when they are actually open (the reading rooms are not open on Mondays as I found out

), I finally got to see the combat records.

It was very worth while. I got photograph 56 genuine comat records signed by 'Billy' Bishop and Mick Mannock. Lots of serial numbers and pilot names. Now I have my readers card and know how to find things theres' going to be no stopping me.