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Thread: Questions About Dive Bombing

  1. #1

    Default Questions About Dive Bombing

    I've only recently started playing WGS, but most of my collection dates from the Nexus era. I've been reviewing the dive bombing rules from the Fire In The Skies boxed set, and have a couple of questions:

    1. Were the dive bombing rules ever updated and included in any Ares rule set? I've read the current WGS rules, and didn't see them. Is everyone still using the rules from FITS?

    2. The Nexus FITS rules specify that only Ju 87 Stukas can dive bomb vertically. Nexus released two other dive bombers, the SBD Dauntless and the D3A Val, but the rules state that these planes can only do 'ordinary' dive bombing. Really? Does anyone know the basis for this? And do y'all agree? I recently enjoyed the movie Midway, and it looked like **** Best and his shipmates were diving very steeply on those Kido Butai carriers. It strikes me that 'ordinary' dive bombing corresponds to the 'glide bombing' that is shown in the movie being executed by green SBD pilots. I'm guessing that late-war fighter-bombers with no dive flaps would also make 'ordinary' dive bombing/glide bombing attacks. Opinions? Or facts, if you have any?

    Oh for heaven's sake. There's a censor-bot on this website that doesn't want me to post the short form of *Richard* Best's first name, even if I capitalize it as a personal name. O, tempora! O, mores!

  2. #2

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    I think the dive bomber rules haven't changed.

    Sadly the Val and Dauntless are not allowed to vertical dive. They do have a pair of short dive cards in their maneuver deck. (same length as a stall) They can plot them back to back and decide whether to hold off and drop on the second short dive card. Not quite a vertical dive as they move just over one base distance but a lot shorter than a normal full dive distance. This does make them easier to hit the target with compared with 'glide bombing' using the long dive card. (especially from altitude!)

    There are new ace skill cards that let you call short or long to adjust your bomb drop.

  3. #3

    Mike C's Avatar
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    I'm just a bit uncertain about the sequence of play with respect to both "normal" dive bombing and vertical dive bombing.

    For "normal" dive bombing, are the bombs placed after the second sharp dive is executed, or in between the first and second sharp dive?

    Similarly, does a vertical dive bombing attack take place after the first vertical dive, before the second dive is executed, or after the two vertical dives are completed?

    It seems the timing of the bomb placement can affect the location using sharp dives in normal dive bombing. For vertical dive bombing, it would not change bomb placement, but it could expose the bomber to another turn of fire before bombs are released.

    Also, if using altitude, the rules say dive bombing must occur with the dive bomber at level 2 or 3. Level 3 makes sense, but wouldn't a dive bomber crash into the ground if it started at level 2. Doesn't it lose one altitude level for each sharp dive or vertical dive?

    Thanks<
    Mike

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by zippyfusenet View Post
    I recently enjoyed the movie Midway, and it looked like **** Best and his shipmates were diving very steeply on those Kido Butai carriers.
    DANGER! DANGER!
    HOLLYWOOD ALERT!

    It is true that they historically performed "true" dive-bombing as opposed to glide bombing, but I have never come across a single claim, anywhere, that the Dauntless could perform a vertical, or even near-vertical, dive.

    At the Battle of Midway, the entire Japanese fleet only managed to shoot down ONE SINGLE US plane with AA fire, but the "Midway" film portrays Dauntlesses being hacked out of the sky Left., Right and Centre!

    HOLLYWOOD ALERT!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  5. #5

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    Actually, a typical Dauntless attack was about 75-85 degree dive angle. IIRC this was amended in the WGS Dauntless mini release, the Nexus rules are flat wrong compared to history. I've put up the Batsignal to Andrea for an official clarification here.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (missing only T&T Starter Nieuport) | WWII (complete)

  6. #6

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    Thanks a lot Diamondback for telling me about this thread!

    The dive and vertical dive bombing rules were in Wings of War. Vertical dive bombing is introduced by "The Junkers Ju 87 Stuka can either use standard dive bombing or
    vertical dive bombing." This because the Stuka is the only plane in the game capable to do that.
    In Wings of Glory they were skipped at first in the Starter Set, the very first box released in 2012: several special rules, included bombings, were simplified and put within scenarios. It was a quick release to start again after the unfortunate wreck of Nexus Editrice and had to be consistent within itself, not relying on Wings of War stuff.
    Soon the complete Rules & Accessories pack followed. There you have rules for dive bombing and vertical dive bombing at page 40. For vertical bombing, the introducing text has been changed into "A bomber capable of vertical diving, such as the Junkers Ju.87 Stuka, may execute vertical dive bombing." This in case other planes are introduced with the same possibility.

    Actually, anyway, the only WW2 planes capable of truly 90° dive bombings, as far as I know, are the Stuka and the Vultee Vengeance, a not so common plane used mainly for training and operated as a bomber by Australia and by the RAF in the Far East.

  7. #7

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    The Dive Bombing rules are presented in the Battle of Britain rulebook :
    https://www.aresgames.eu/25831

    page 25
    SHARP DIVES
    A first Sharp Dive card must be planned with another Sharp Dive card or High speed non steep maneuver.

    VERTICAL DIVES
    A first Vertical Dive must be planned with another Vertical Dive or High speed non steep maneuver (not a sharp dive card).

    ALTITUDE
    The plane looses one altitude level after each Sharp or Vertical dive.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
    I'm just a bit uncertain about the sequence of play with respect to both "normal" dive bombing and vertical dive bombing.

    For "normal" dive bombing, are the bombs placed after the second sharp dive is executed, or in between the first and second sharp dive?

    Similarly, does a vertical dive bombing attack take place after the first vertical dive, before the second dive is executed, or after the two vertical dives are completed?
    page 40
    DIVE BOMBING
    - First Sharp Dive card
    - announcement of dropping bomb (in the rule picture below : “your bomber can decide to drop bomb…
    - Second Sharp Dive card
    - place Bomb card in front of plane base.

    VERTICAL DIVE BOMBING
    - First Vertical Dive
    - announcement of dropping bomb (in the rule picture below : “your bomber may decide to drop bomb…
    - Second Vertical Dive card
    - Bomb hits the ground.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mike C View Post
    If using altitude, the rules say dive bombing must occur with the dive bomber at level 2 or 3. Level 3 makes sense, but wouldn't a dive bomber crash into the ground if it started at level 2. Doesn't it lose one altitude level for each sharp dive or vertical dive?
    ALTITUDE
    The announcement of the decision to drop bomb must be made when the plane’s altitude is 2 or 3 (after the first Sharp or Vertical Dive has been played).
    So the planning of the first Sharp or Vertical Dive must be made when plane’s altitude is 3 or 4.

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    Honza has made great schemes for Sharp and Dive Bombing in the files section.
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/do...o=file&id=1259

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    Here is a pictural form made by Woof for Other types of airplanes as bombers (page 40, see second picture above)
    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...n-for-Fighters

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by monse; 10-05-2022 at 00:47.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Actually, a typical Dauntless attack was about 75-85 degree dive angle.
    Really? I've never come across this anywhere, and I've been gaming Pacific Carrier wars for nearly 40 years.
    What's your source?
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  9. #9

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    monse - that's an AMAZINGLY helpful post, especially since it has the diagrams all collated in one place.

    REP!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  10. #10

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    I agree Tim.
    Well worth the Rep.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Really? I've never come across this anywhere, and I've been gaming Pacific Carrier wars for nearly 40 years.
    What's your source?
    Could be my memory failing me again over four decades in aviation history too--I just went back to the flight manual and US Navy History & Heritage Command's "official history" for the type, and those indicate 70 as textbook with a hard redline for dive-brake deployment at 210kt and terminal-velocity at 250.

    My apologies for muddying the waters.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (missing only T&T Starter Nieuport) | WWII (complete)

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Could be my memory failing me again over four decades in aviation history too--I just went back to the flight manual and US Navy History & Heritage Command's "official history" for the type, and those indicate 70 as textbook with a hard redline for dive-brake deployment at 210kt and terminal-velocity at 250.
    There is also this superb training film on youtube which covers the considerations behind dive angles:



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