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Thread: Modified altitude rules

  1. #1

    Default Modified altitude rules

    Our group in Melbourne have tossed around some ideas for modified altitude rules. This is just to speed the game up a bit with tournaments in mind. One idea was for fighters to add or remove an altitude peg each time they played a climb or dive card. another idea was to reduce the number of climb tokens required. What other ideas have people tested and found effective?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick.G View Post
    Our group in Melbourne have tossed around some ideas for modified altitude rules. This is just to speed the game up a bit with tournaments in mind. One idea was for fighters to add or remove an altitude peg each time they played a climb or dive card. another idea was to reduce the number of climb tokens required. What other ideas have people tested and found effective?
    I‘m curious about that topic, too. The original altitude rules just doesn’t met the level of elegance of the 2D movement rules, for me. I would also like to read some experiences from real oldtimer biplane pilots about the climb and dive manoeuvrability: I think a curved climb maybe could be almost impossible or ineffective with a underpowered plane of 1916. A curved dive should be possible, I guess.

  3. #3

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    Turning climbs and dives have been suggested in past posts, and I did up a few cards for any games that I rarely play with altitude.

    OldGuy59's WWS 5.8cm Maneuver Deck - Climb and Dive Cards Album
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  4. #4

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    If I've got it right, in both WW1and WW2, the fastest climbers have a climb rate of 2. My proposal is to reduce the climb rates by 2. This results in climb rate 2 becoming zero. I haven't play tested this yet but am hoping it will speed up play.

  5. #5

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    I like keeping the climb rates as is but let pilots using the climb card gain 1 or 2 increments instead of just 1. This lets those fast 2 climbers gain a complete level in a turn if they want and the clunkier 4-5 climbers still can get back to the fight a bit quicker after they've done a dive.

  6. #6

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    I played around with altitude a few months ago, utilizing the ‘steep’ cards along with actual climb cards, but at a reduced rate, while staying within the framework of the rules. I’ll try to dig up my examples and post something this weekend.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick.G View Post
    Our group in Melbourne have tossed around some ideas for modified altitude rules. This is just to speed the game up a bit with tournaments in mind. One idea was for fighters to add or remove an altitude peg each time they played a climb or dive card. another idea was to reduce the number of climb tokens required. What other ideas have people tested and found effective?
    For a number of years with WGF, I've used climb and dive tokens and I've removed the dive and climb cards.
    A token is placed face down on each movement card.

    For fighters:
    A dive token can be placed on any card which is not steep.
    A climb token can be placed on a stall (short card).
    A climb token can be placed on any card that immediately follows a dive.

    This makes possible:
    1. Diving Turns, side slips and so on.
    2. Multiple Dives in a turn.
    3. Two Climbs in a turn.
    4. Boom and zoom (a dive immediately followed by a climb)

    The only drawback of climb\dive tokens is you will need to make eight tokens per player - three marked dive, two marked climb and three blank.
    But it does make each movement deck smaller by two cards and making the tokens is easier than making new movement cards.
    I've found new players get used to dive\climb tokens fairly quick.

  8. #8

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    This sounds really interesting, Nicola! I think it would be great to try with our local group. Since you need three blank tokens, I assume you have to place a token on each card each turn. If no climbs or dives are planned, then all three plotted cards have blank tokens.

    Do you keep to the climb rates as published in the RAP, or have you modified those, too?

    Thanks for sharing this 'home brew' - I look forward to proposing it to our group.

    All the best,
    Matt

  9. #9

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    Very interesting Nicola. In the Aerodrome Store Keith sells WGS ace speed tokens with climb and dive options. These could be used be used with WGF as well for what you do with altitude. I've tried to use them with WGS but most of the players didn't have much experience with altitude so this just muddled the waters more for them. I really like the concept but since it didn't play out well the few times I tried it I now just use my simple climbing modification.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    This sounds really interesting, Nicola! I think it would be great to try with our local group. Since you need three blank tokens, I assume you have to place a token on each card each turn. If no climbs or dives are planned, then all three plotted cards have blank tokens.

    Do you keep to the climb rates as published in the RAP, or have you modified those, too?

    Thanks for sharing this 'home brew' - I look forward to proposing it to our group.

    All the best,
    Matt
    Yes the 3 blank ones are for when there are no dives or climbs.

    Dive\climb tokens gives the option for several optional advanced rules.

    For non-fighters, I restrict dives to the straight card and a dive cannot follow a dive.
    This makes fighters more nimble (than observation planes) in the vertical as well as the horizontal.

    For some fighters (e.g. Alb DV and DVa), a dive cannot follow a dive. So an Alb DV can do a turning dive but not a continuous dive.

    The other house rule I use is to extend the card after the dive with a dive extension card.
    I have made a dive extension card specific for each plane based on its ability to build up and maintain speed in a dive
    Simply place the card on top of the arrow to extend by a set amount.
    Something like a Spad has a long dive extension, an Alb DV has one a bit shorter, and a DH2 has a short dive extension.

    Combined with the dive tokens, it, then, becomes possible to do serious boom and zoom tactics.
    Something like a Spad is always played in the vertical as well as the horizontal.
    Drop a level to extend its fast speed even more and follow the dive with a climb to avoid losing height.

    A significant limit to the length of the dive extension (and one reason why I had to be careful about each length) is the movement from the dive-climb (with the return to the starting height) must be less than the movement from just going forward. Otherwise there is a net energy gain!

  11. #11

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    Looking at introducing something along similar lines based on my solo rules to the chaps at Entoyment but will still be using the Alt cards and climb rates as well as allowing one peg climbs/dives on the other cards. Yet to test it but should provide a more dynamic game. If it works out I will put it in the files.

    "He is wise who watches"

  12. #12

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    Do you have listing of your dive extension cards somewhere in a site file, Nicola, or are you willing to share that info individually if not to the entire group? Those options sound like interesting bits to add in, too.

    All the best,
    Matt

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    I guess I should also make sure and ask about the dive tokens - do you drop an entire peg when you play them or just a climb counter? Likewise with the climb token, I assume it brings you up one counter rather than one peg...

    All the best,
    Matt

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    Do you have listing of your dive extension cards somewhere in a site file, Nicola, or are you willing to share that info individually if not to the entire group? Those options sound like interesting bits to add in, too.

    All the best,
    Matt
    What he said ^^^^^

    Nicola,
    If you are interested, I could help with graphics? If the offer is not being too presuptuous?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  15. #15

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    Oooo, differing the dive ability between planes sounds great. We have different climb rates, its been odd that we don't have the same consideration for dives. I'm very interested in this!

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Oooo, differing the dive ability between planes sounds great. We have different climb rates, its been odd that we don't have the same consideration for dives. I'm very interested in this!
    Me too, so long as it's not overly complex........
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  17. #17

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    I decided I couldn't wait for the weekend and would strike while the stove was hot.


    My idea was to do something similar to the simplified rules that Flash and Zoe Brain each came up with, but not using pegs.
    The thing that always irked me about the altitude rules as written was that each level with climb counters on it was still just one level, regardless of how many are in play.
    e.g. a plane with a climb rate of 4 at Level 3, with 3 counters on it, vs. a plane at Level 4 was still one Altitude Different, the same as it would be with 1 or no counters, even though one more counter would raise his altitude.

    I decided that all chits are not equal.

    Playing around in Excel I tried a bunch of different options trying to come up with a common system that would split the Climb Rates into 'Chits'
    I came to the conclusion that a level of Altitude would be 16 chits.
    A Climb Rate of 2 would climb 8 chits per phase.
    A Climb Rate of 3 would climb 7 chits and so on ...

    Further to that, the Steep Maneuvers would allow a climb at a slightly lower rate, and regular moves could climb 1 chit.
    (except the sideslip)


    Click image for larger version. 

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    The following table shows how the current rules allow climbing per phase.
    Note that there being only 1 climb card, only one climb is allowed per phase.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This next chart shows the same period of turns and phases but with the 'chit' system.
    In these examples it is showing the quickest way to climb, using Climb, Steep, and 1 chit climbs for regular moves.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This next one shows the same info but with each green cell showing where the altitude level changes:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    All I need now is a simple way to track the altitude on the console.
    I have tried it using some playing cards that just have single large numbers on them, using them like an odometer.
    It worked fairly well, but I would like something better - maybe actual dials - or even just something printed like the pads in Richtofen's War,

    Each player would have a card like the first one above, plus one like this next one to keep track of when to change the pegs on the plane:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I am trying to remember exactly what I came up with when it comes to firing.
    I think it was anything within 16 chits at long range or 8 chits for short range.

    Probably needs some fine-tuning, but I think this could make altitude more exciting, while keeping the different climb rates and Altitude levels.

    P.S. I hope those Excel snips are readable, but hopefully you get the gist of it.

    P.P.S. Just to clarify - 'chits' are virtual. You play a single climb counter on any movement card and rack up the 'chits' based on the climb rate and type of card (climb, steep, or regular) on your odometer.
    Last edited by Stumptonian; 10-25-2019 at 20:34. Reason: P.P.S.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    I guess I should also make sure and ask about the dive tokens - do you drop an entire peg when you play them or just a climb counter? Likewise with the climb token, I assume it brings you up one counter rather than one peg...

    All the best,
    Matt
    Yes the dive drops one peg and the climb turns over a climb counter.
    With all my house rules for all the games I play, I try to make the minimum changes to the rules while trying to get the results I'd like.
    My main aim was to enable boom and zoom tactics for the late war planes - especially the Spad and SE5a.

  19. #19

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    Thanks, Nicola, for the clarifications. I dug out my blank counters folder and am going to make up enough counters for several of us to give your system a try...

    I will likely be back with questions after we've given it a go

    All the best,
    Matt

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    I decided I couldn't wait for the weekend and would strike while the stove was hot..
    That's a lot of chits Pete ! Took me a moment to get my head round it but got there in the end.
    Not sure I'd allow more climb height for steep moves, thinking that shows instability/restriction rather than an advantage in climbing. Quite a few occur on side slips too.
    You'd only need dials for peg & chit count, or, pegs & 16 chits to track progress.
    Good luck with it, mine's intended to be more immediate vicinity wise to keep the action close.

    "He is wise who watches"

  21. #21

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    The total chits are tracked by the ‘altimeter’.
    You would only place counters for each phase, one chit per card.

  22. #22


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    I like simple for easy playing. Play a climb card go up one peg. Play a dive down one peg. A stressful card cannot follow a climb or dive card. Climb rates are the number of regular non-stress cards that must be played before being able to play your climb card again. Eg DR1 climbs one level, since his climb rate is 2 he must play two non-stress cards before he plays his climb card again.



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