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Thread: Macchi M5 with a 37mm Cannon.

  1. #1

    Default Macchi M5 with a 37mm Cannon.

    Has anyone else picked up on the suggestion in the 'A Lonely Invader' scenario on page 10 of the 'Invasion' booklet to use a Macchi M5 equipped with a 37mm cannon?

    As a 'pusher' aircraft, the cannon would not have to fire though the propeller shaft and as a larger aircraft, I suppose that it would better be able to handle the weight. So it seems a sensible idea. The suggestion does not say whether the 37mm cannon replaces one or both machine guns.

    Also, of course from Ares point of view, it might encourage more people to buy the Macchi models?

  2. #2

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    Hadn't seen that David, interesting idea, not sure how they'd mount it but I'd suggest leaving one MG in just so they have something once the cannon has fired !

    "He is wise who watches"

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    If we let the Macchi have 1 machine gun with the 37mm cannon, then we might have opportunities to apply the special +1 Aiming rule for the 37m cannon in the rulebook.

    Some sources state that the Macchi M5 could carry two or four small bombs, so, if it did not carry any bombs and a machine gun was removed perhaps it could cope with the weight of a 37mm cannon. A bigger problem might be finding a way to attach the cannon to the airframe in such a way that it could withstand the recoil. However, the game is fiction, so we need not worry about that.

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    Being that you can assign cannons to planes indiscriminantly in the T&T, at the choice of the players (or rockets), it doesn't require removal of the standard armament.
    Not necessarily realistic, but, being the end of WW1, I suggest that the plane also has a new, more powerful engine, or other modifications, as required, to work without changing maneuver decks or climb rates.

    My thought, anyway.

    PS: Just checked a version of the rules I have (I have a few, being a playtester), and a sidebar mentions new engines as well. However, for the sidebar, I suspect they were thinking about the cannon firing through the hub, as did the SPAD XII.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-07-2019 at 09:03.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

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    As a playtester, Mike, I wonder whether you can answer some questions for me about special weapons and the Tripods' shields.

    Since the C and D damage decks have power cell drain symbols on some cards, am I correct in assuming that the Martian shields will stop 37mm cannon shells and rockets, please?

    Do Martin shields stop bombs, please?

    Am I correct in thinking that the shields have no effect on Kazakov's Anchor and Chain weapon and the card drawn to decide whether the Anchor hooks on is not counted as damage to the Tripod?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    As a playtester, Mike, I wonder whether you can answer some questions for me about special weapons and the Tripods' shields.

    Since the C and D damage decks have power cell drain symbols on some cards, am I correct in assuming that the Martian shields will stop 37mm cannon shells and rockets, please?

    Do Martin shields stop bombs, please?

    Am I correct in thinking that the shields have no effect on Kazakov's Anchor and Chain weapon and the card drawn to decide whether the Anchor hooks on is not counted as damage to the Tripod?
    When I started playtesting, I assumed the shield would stop any kinetic damage. Things moving very fast. I allowed the kerosene from the rockets to drip through the shield and start fires, if a Fire Special Damage card was revealed, even if the shield was active. Andrea corrected this assumption, and nothing goes through the electrified armor.

    The Anchor and Chain are not weapons, exactly, but an obstacle. It is a man-made and actively introduced obstacle, but not a kinetic weapon. So, shields are not considered. That's my understanding, anyway.

    PS: As to bombs, I never playtested the bombing rules, as that was kept in-house. I would consider the direction of the approaching aircraft, and the height of the bomb release. If the bombs cross a shielded side of the Tripod stand, the bombs hit a shield, and only cards with the bolt have any effect.

    Not playing altitude, I am not very familiar with bombing at altitude, but if the bombs fall a card length per phase, only the last phase before hitting counts. A tripod could turn into/away from a bomb, if there is a delay, and take the bombs on a shielded side (or get hit on an unshielded side by accident/planning error).
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-12-2019 at 09:17.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  7. #7

  8. #8

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    sounds like napalm would be ideal and that bombs would be better served being dropped immediately in front of tripods to trip them up.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    sounds like napalm would be ideal and that bombs would be better served being dropped immediately in front of tripods to trip them up.
    Great idea Phil - that'll need a template !

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    sounds like napalm would be ideal and that bombs would be better served being dropped immediately in front of tripods to trip them up.
    Not invented until 1942, so not usable in WW1. Flammenwerfers and such used ignited oil as fuel, so it's use as an aerial bomb wouldn't work very well.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Not invented until 1942, so not usable in WW1. Flammenwerfers and such used ignited oil as fuel, so it's use as an aerial bomb wouldn't work very well.
    Karl
    Hmmm... On tanks, yes. But, we are not doing the ground war effort in our games, usually.

    Drop big enough bombs, and you could call the resulting holes obstacles? Yeah. Craters are mentioned in the rules, we just have to decide how big the bomb would have to be to create a crater that would trip up a tripod. I'm thinking a 1000lb-er or two? That would mean that medium or large bombers could attempt to lay obstacles during a game, and if they got real lucky, could damage the tripod at the same time.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Not invented until 1942, so not usable in WW1. Flammenwerfers and such used ignited oil as fuel, so it's use as an aerial bomb wouldn't work very well.
    Karl

    well, tripods werent invented at all. call it greek fire V2.0, whatever.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Not invented until 1942, so not usable in WW1. Flammenwerfers and such used ignited oil as fuel, so it's use as an aerial bomb wouldn't work very well.
    Karl
    Pretty naff as a rocket too Karl but that seems to be acceptable in the game, so dropping a container of fuel oil with some explosive to disperse & ignite it is not a stretch beyond the imagination.

    "He is wise who watches"

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    ...Drop big enough bombs, and you could call the resulting holes obstacles? Yeah. Craters are mentioned in the rules, we just have to decide how big the bomb would have to be to create a crater that would trip up a tripod. I'm thinking a 1000lb-er or two? That would mean that medium or large bombers could attempt to lay obstacles during a game, and if they got real lucky, could damage the tripod at the same time.
    You'd have to get three Gotha's (840lb) or a couple Caproni Ca.3 (1764lb) to combine hits, or, one HP O/400 (2000lb) or one Staaken (4,409 lb) to get the 1000lb-er or two level being considered in this case.
    Without delving into bomb types, crater sizes & the physics of it all would it not be a lot easier to say that medium or giant bombers can drop enough bombs to create a hazard that a Tripod may trip on ie a template of a certain size.
    A Gotha could drop 1 template, a Caproni or HP O/400 could drop 2 & a Giant could drop 3, if they live long enough !

    "He is wise who watches"

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Pretty naff as a rocket too Karl but that seems to be acceptable in the game, so dropping a container of fuel oil with some explosive to disperse & ignite it is not a stretch beyond the imagination.
    Probably burn out too fast to be considered an obstacle or continuing damage. So just like bomb damage.

    As for Heavy bombers, while I haven't played yet, I can't imagine a Gotha or HP getting into drop range before being crispy-fried.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    The heavy bombers could fly at a higher altitude to escape the Tripods' weapons but it does make bomb aiming more difficult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    ...As for Heavy bombers, while I haven't played yet, I can't imagine a Gotha or HP getting into drop range before being crispy-fried. Karl
    Indeed, anything bombing an agile moving target is pretty futile but they could drop what amounts to be an obstacle out of range of a heat ray to delay its advance or block its route to an objective.

    "He is wise who watches"

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    Was something like 'carpet' bombing possible with Gothas, Capronis, HP O/400 or Staakens?

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    You can release part loads from successive movement cards Ken but it can be very tricky to track, especially from higher altitudes.
    To keep things simple I was suggesting that the Gotha's payload is the smallest load able to create a 'template of damage' that may trip a tripod. The Caproni, HP O/400 & Staaken with their bigger payloads could drop two or more loads so you could carpet bomb a strip with two or more templates from one of them.
    I would further suggest that to get the density of damage required that loads are dropped from Alt 2 - that would make tracking multi drops that much easier as well as bringing the bombers into range.

    "He is wise who watches"



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