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Thread: A three gun Spad VII

  1. #1

    Default A three gun Spad VII

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    A 3 gun Spad VII used by Rene Montrion of SPA 48.
    .He was shot down and KIA by a Fokker D.VII during a anti-balloon mission on 28 June 1918.

    Sorry guys, I wanted this to go to historical discussions.
    Last edited by john snelling; 10-01-2019 at 08:52.

  2. #2

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    Now you've done it John, everyone will want one ! Be quite handy against Tripods I would think.

    "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

    Guntruck's Avatar Central England Command Squadron Leader & Librarian
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    Hmm, I picked up a spare SPAD at Doncaster...…..
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  4. #4

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    Don't tell Generale d'L'Air 'edebee!

  5. #5

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    A great plane to counter Chris' super Bristol! A new project for a Shapeways plane I have that is already primed. SPA48, here we go!
    Last edited by Teaticket; 10-02-2019 at 11:34.

  6. #6

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    Have to wonder the effect of 2 more MGs; those look like Mle 1914 Hotchkiss machine guns, so 100 pounds plus ammo for the 2 of them.
    Maybe take it down to a J deck?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Have to wonder the effect of 2 more MGs; those look like Mle 1914 Hotchkiss machine guns, so 100 pounds plus ammo for the 2 of them.
    Maybe take it down to a J deck?
    Karl
    It was unable to dogfight.

  8. #8

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    Interesting indeed, anyway!

  9. #9

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    well, that couldve been the reason it crashed. just sayin.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    It was unable to dogfight.
    I ran into that a couple times searching too, but it wasn't explained.
    Some modern commentators said, without documentation, that it was for ground attack.
    While i have not studied French aircraft operations in WW1, I cant' recall mentions of them using deliberate ground attack planes, like the British and Germans did.
    Still, if people make them, there needs to be rules fort hem
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Have to wonder the effect of 2 more MGs; those look like Mle 1914 Hotchkiss machine guns, so 100 pounds plus ammo for the 2 of them.
    Maybe take it down to a J deck?
    Karl
    'K' deck? Same speed as the 'J', but minus two sideslips and the Immel?

  12. #12

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    Interesting.

    Always something to discover...
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I ran into that a couple times searching too, but it wasn't explained.
    Some modern commentators said, without documentation, that it was for ground attack.
    While i have not studied French aircraft operations in WW1, I cant' recall mentions of them using deliberate ground attack planes, like the British and Germans did.
    Still, if people make them, there needs to be rules fort hem
    Karl
    I read that also (not true). But he was shot down during an anti-balloon mission by a Fokker D.VII flown by Carlos Meyer Baldo also known as Karl Meyer of Jasta 4. There is also a source that wrote Carlos shot down a Spad XIII on that date which is not true. There is a lot of information out there that is not true, just speculation that gets repeated over and over. Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #14

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    What would be the damage for the Spad?

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyBoy Nate View Post
    What would be the damage for the Spad?
    Same as a normal SPAD VII. Guns would be A+B

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    'K' deck? Same speed as the 'J', but minus two sideslips and the Immel?
    Certainly a possible deck.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I read that also (not true). But he was shot down during an anti-balloon mission by a Fokker D.VII flown by Carlos Meyer Baldo also known as Karl Meyer of Jasta 4. There is also a source that wrote Carlos shot down a Spad XIII on that date which is not true. There is a lot of information out there that is not true, just speculation that gets repeated over and over.
    Very true.
    Wiki indicates that Escadrille SPA.48 ended thew war using SPAD.VIIs, which seems a bit odd.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  17. #17

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    The RFC tried putting a Lewis on the SPAD VII and thought it degraded the performance such that it wasn't worth the addition so cranking the performance down would be right - I'd go with a V deck rather than a J or K - that way it could still over dive. If you wanted to really screw it down because it has two extra guns give it a G deck - slower still & less stable with a steep sideslip, mess with the Max Alt & double the climb rate too.

    "He is wise who watches"

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Very true.
    Wiki indicates that Escadrille SPA.48 ended thew war using SPAD.VIIs, which seems a bit odd.

    Karl
    From Wiki
    While giving the Spad XIII outstanding performance, the geared engines proved to be unreliable, suffering from poor lubrication and vibration. This significantly and severely affected serviceability, with it being stated in November 1917 that the Spad S.XIII was "incapable of giving dependable service". Even in April 1918, an official report stated that two-thirds of the 200 hp SPADs were out of use at any one time due to engine problems.

    So the French kept the Spad VII to booster the number of aircraft they could send on a mission. They kept them around till the end of the war.

    From an American in the French service prospective.
    Harold Nichols, an American LFC pilot in Escadrille Spa85, had flown a 180 hp Spad VII with some success, and was not eager to switch over to one of the new XIIIs when they arrived. On May 6, 1918, he wrote home:"On Sat. I went out again. The old machine never fails. I'm the only one that has made every patrol that has gone out from here. All the new machines get something wrong with them, but old No. 14 is always there. I had a chance to get a new 220 H.P. Spad, but I preferred to keep my old 180 H.P. Ever since then they have been trying to make the new one run! The other day, when we two went after the biplace Boche, the other machine was a 220, and he got no higher than I did."

  19. #19

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    In the words of Chris Hedeby.
    "Never knowingly undergunned"


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    I ran into that a couple times searching too, but it wasn't explained.
    Some modern commentators said, without documentation, that it was for ground attack.
    While i have not studied French aircraft operations in WW1, I cant' recall mentions of them using deliberate ground attack planes, like the British and Germans did.
    Still, if people make them, there needs to be rules fort hem
    Karl
    The Salmson 4 was a purpose-built ground-attack variant of the Salmson 2, but it came out very late in the war. The cannon-armed Voisins were mostly used for ground-attack.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    The Salmson 4 was a purpose-built ground-attack variant of the Salmson 2, but it came out very late in the war. The cannon-armed Voisins were mostly used for ground-attack.
    I hadn't heard of the Salmson 4 before. From what I've read, the cannon Viosins were used against rear area targets, specifically, railroads.
    While that is ground attack, I was thinking more frontline work; trench strafing and artillery positions.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  22. #22

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    Now you've done it John, everyone will want one !
    What, us?

    And with DYM Mission 10 all set up and ready to go Dave, do you think we might build in an experimental DH2 with three MGs - No! OK, how about just two

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeemagnus View Post
    What, us?

    And with DYM Mission 10 all set up and ready to go Dave, do you think we might build in an experimental DH2 with three MGs - No! OK, how about just two
    You are going where Uncle won't appreciate! You're a pilot, not an engineer. Get in your plane and just fly.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    You are going where Uncle won't appreciate! You're a pilot, not an engineer. Get in your plane and just fly.
    they didn't like it when pilots jammed the single MG forward on the DH-2s;
    "Why did you do that? Flexible MGs are better!"
    "You try flying an unstable plane with one hand, aim a lewis gun with the other, while chasing a Boche plane around the sky!"

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeemagnus View Post
    ...And with DYM Mission 10 all set up and ready to go Dave, do you think we might build in an experimental DH2 with three MGs ....?
    Sounds like a candidate for a XA deck to me

    "He is wise who watches"

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I'd go with a V deck rather than a J or K - that way it could still over dive.
    It can overdive anyway on the J or K deck.

  27. #27

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    If you want a plane with extra wing guns, you could always try a Sopwith Dolphin.

    One interesting fact about Carlos Meyer Baldo is that he was a Venezuelan, who volunteered to serve in the German forces.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    It can overdive anyway on the J or K deck.
    On the J deck yes, not on the K deck. Models without an Immelmann cannot overdive. V deck has fewer sideslips so slightly less manoeuvrable than the J.

    "He is wise who watches"

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    not on the K deck. Models without an Immelmann cannot overdive.
    Where does it say this?

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Where does it say this?
    Advanced Rules Overdive section of RAP Tim - the last sentence on p15.

    "He is wise who watches"

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Advanced Rules Overdive section of RAP Tim - the last sentence on p15.
    Not in my RAP, it doesn't!

    Last line on p15 is "If an airplane descends below alttude 1 because of an overdive, it crashes into the ground and is eliminated".

    Are there 2 different prints of RAP Rulebooks?
    Mine is copyright 2012 on p2. I have checked all 4 of my RAP Rulebooks, and NONE of them carry the Immelmann card pre-requisite for an overdive..........

    I suppose it's a moot point anyway - the K deck is identical to the V deck, if the Immelmann is removed, and since that is what was proposed for the 3 gun SPAD VII then use of the K deck is OK

  32. #32

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    My book is like your Tim but this was added to later printings. See the ARES FAQ/errata HERE.

  33. #33

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    Thanks Peter!

    I'll have to find a reprinted RAP Rulebook from somewhere.

  34. #34

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    I have printed out the errata and have it in my book.

    I do have a second back up copy I haven't looked at. I hope it's the newer version. Time to look!

  35. #35

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    Whoo hoo! My second copy is a 2014 printing with updated errata. Time to retire my original rule book.

  36. #36

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    At least we're all on the same page now !

    "He is wise who watches"

  37. #37

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    Yeah, I found a while back that 2 of my 3 are 2012.

    It might have been this issue that brought it to light.
    I downloaded the errata and inserted as Peter has done.

    I like to have two copies at the gaming table (for the very rare times when I have an opponent) and one by my laptop.

  38. #38

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    Found this whilst trawling about - Dieudonne Costes' three gun SPAD 7 on the Balkan front mounting Lewis guns on the wings. Doesn't say if or what he used it for but none of his 8 kills are balloons, though he shot one up on the ground - looking at Montrion's SPAD in the original photo that too may be also be fitted with Lewis guns but the ammo pan's have been removed to make them safe.

    "He is wise who watches"

  39. #39

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    Well that would almost halve the extra weight.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus



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