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Thread: Black Smoke - timing of placement, dissipation, LoS blocking

  1. #1

    Default Black Smoke - timing of placement, dissipation, LoS blocking

    Per the rules on pp 24-25 of the T&T rulebook, placement of Black Smoke happens during the Firing Step.

    Black Smoke blocks line of sight (LoS) and remains on the board until dissipated or removed by the controlling Martian player.

    Dissipation: "When the base of a vehicle or a maneuver card overlaps a black smoke cloud template, the cloud is dissipated and removed."

    So my question is:
    When the Martian player launches Black Smoke, many times it's possible to overlap a plane base directly, during the template placement operation (I'm assuming this is one of the most common ways Black Smoke is used, in fact).

    Black Smoke is placed during the Firing Step, but does it dissipate (and cause damage) before all other firing is resolved, or does it block LoS, and do damage at the same time as all other firing, and then is removed at the end of the Firing Step in which it was placed?

    This is one of those questions that would really benefit from Andrea's input
    Last edited by surfimp; 09-11-2019 at 08:17. Reason: Removed inaccurate info. Thanks Flash for the correction!

  2. #2

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    I have always attempted to deploy Black Smoke so that it hits something on launch. However, 'best laid plans'... When it can't be placed so that it hits on deployment, I try to place it so that the target has to run into it. Which usually means that it won't be on the board for very long.

    We didn't get into many situations where I used it for protection from shots, but that is also a viable tactic, as is placing Black Smoke so that it restricts approach paths to Objectives the Tripod will need to stand upon.

    In playtesting, I hadn't used them for Line-of-Sight, but it will be part of my tactical toolkit in future games.

    Especially as the damage decks now allow multiple-cube energy loss for non-special damage cards.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

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    i would say the very fact the book says it blocks line of sight that is not removed until after firing phase.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    Per the rules on pp 24-25 of the T&T rulebook, placement of Black Smoke happens after the Movement Step but before the Firing Step......
    ....However, since it seems clear from the way the rules are written that Black Smoke template placing happens between the Maneuver Step and the Firing Step, in the event that a Black Smoke cloud template overlaps a plane base directly, is the cloud not therefore removed before the Firing Step as well?
    ......
    Interesting query Steve !
    The rules as written on p24 refer to the action token for the launcher being placed "to indicate which direction the tripod will launch black smoke in the firing step."
    The template is therefore placed in the firing step but is placed before other firing is resolved - much like the rules for dropping bombs.
    In the circumstances given I think Andrea will have to decide whether the Black Smoke is immediately dissipated, or, whether LOS is blocked for that firing phase & the template is removed at the end of the phase.
    Think I'd favour the latter personally. I'll PM him.
    Last edited by flash; 09-09-2019 at 11:06.

    "He is wise who watches"

  5. #5

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    Thanks Flash! I completely missed that reference, it really helps clear up the timing.

    I guess, as you note, the question remains regarding LoS blocking, though? I.e. the action token is removed at the end of the firing step, but the Black Smoke cloud template is removed (dissipated) when it overlaps a vehicle base. So, unless I’m missing something else (which I hope I am), I don’t know if the question about when the cloud template is removed - and hence when it does or does not block line of sight - has been sorted?
    Last edited by surfimp; 09-09-2019 at 11:24.

  6. #6

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    Good questions Steve.
    Black smoke weapon left my group little confused after the first game some time ago, realizing all the problems you pointed out.
    I read the rules just like you do and accept the fact that the cloud may overlap one or several planes (i managed to do that a few times) and then it is dissipated. If it does not overlap any plane in the moment it is launched - it stays in place until dissipated later.
    From my experience the template is too large and it is very easy to catch a plane or two on the spot.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
    Thanks Flash! I completely missed that reference, it really helps clear up the timing.

    I guess, as you note, the question remains regarding LoS blocking, though? I.e. the action token is removed at the end of the firing step, but the Black Smoke cloud template is removed (dissipated) when it overlaps a vehicle base. So, unless I’m missing something else (which I hope I am), I don’t know if the question about when the cloud template is removed - and hence when it does or does not block line of sight - has been sorted?
    No problem Steve - I've asked Andrea if could take a look at it - hopefully he'll have a definitive answer for us.

    "He is wise who watches"

  8. #8

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    We have been playing it that when Black Smoke is fired during the firing phase, if the smoke template 'hits' a plane/planes, it does its damage and is removed immediately, as it has had contact with the base of the plane. Should the Z Deck damage down a plane able to fire at the tripod, we let the plane get its shots in before it goes down.By 'maneuver card, I can only imagine they mean the plane/tripod card used when models cannot be co-located. If they mean maneuver card as in cards from the movement deck, then the Black Smoke would dissipate before the plane whose movement is indicated by the card is placed, right?!

    If Black Smoke is fired and does not contact a plane immediately, it sits where it is and blocks LOS, remaining there until dissipated by vehicle contact or Martian intent.

    I look forward to Andrea's clarifications for us.

    All the best,
    Matt

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    We have been playing it that when Black Smoke is fired during the firing phase, if the smoke template 'hits' a plane/planes, it does its damage and is removed immediately, as it has had contact with the base of the plane. Should the Z Deck damage down a plane able to fire at the tripod, we let the plane get its shots in before it goes down.By 'maneuver card, I can only imagine they mean the plane/tripod card used when models cannot be co-located. If they mean maneuver card as in cards from the movement deck, then the Black Smoke would dissipate before the plane whose movement is indicated by the card is placed, right?!

    If Black Smoke is fired and does not contact a plane immediately, it sits where it is and blocks LOS, remaining there until dissipated by vehicle contact or Martian intent.

    I look forward to Andrea's clarifications for us.

    All the best,
    Matt
    Matt,
    For instances where the rule, "When the base of a vehicle base or a maneuver card overlaps a black smoke cloud template, the cloud is dissipated and removed." would apply, this is in consideration for future phases or turns, after deployment.

    Should the initial deployment not contact a plane base, and remains in play, there will be occassions where a plane may maneuver close to a cloud. It can be arranged that the plane flies close, but before the maneuver card is used, the plane is not touching the cloud template. After the maneuver is completed the plane stand is again not touching the cloud template. Rules Lawyers could argue that the plane stand isn't touching the template before or after the maneuver, and therefore not affected by the cloud. The above quote is to ensure that this case is covered, and that in this case the plane would actually physically have had to move between the two points, and therefore contacted the cloud, and subject to damage. Really, that is what the quote is meant to cover.

    PS: Not speaking for Andrea, but unless otherwise stated, all damage in a specific Fire Phase is simultaneous. Itchy Trigger Finger Ace Skill is a particular exception. All damage is inflicted at the same time, with all return fire conducted by all participants. I don't read anything in the description that refutes this principle of the game. Yes, if the Black Smoke Template is in contact with a plane base it is considered dissipated, but the plane(s) still take the damage. Not exclusively and immediately, but in the same Firing Phase. Return shots are allowed, but then, perhaps the cloud blocks Line of Sight?

    Hmmm... Overlapping planes don't block Line of Sight, and the Black Cloud Template must overlap the plane base to be effective. I would consider where the cloud is and whether the cloud deploys and dissipates fast enough NOT to block Line of Sight. Or that the decision to fire and pull the trigger, within the two seconds of a Maneuver/Firing Phase is such that the shots and target are going to be in the same place for a brief, but relevant, portion of time (hence "0"s in the damage deck). Unless, as the bullets travel through the Black Cloud, they dissolve in the corrosive gas before getting to the Tripod?
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 09-09-2019 at 17:30.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  10. #10

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    And, of course, if you are using altitude, the Black Smoke is only effective a one or two pegs - so at three or four it would not block LOS, either...

    All the best,
    Matt

  11. #11

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    I have read the rules and this has cleared things up but brought up another question for me.
    The Martian plays the first movement card and an Action card to fire the HR. The HR has to cool down so you place a marker to indicate that.
    Now my question. Can the Martian player use the Smoke on the next movement/action phase?

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    I have read the rules and this has cleared things up but brought up another question for me.
    The Martian plays the first movement card and an Action card to fire the HR. The HR has to cool down so you place a marker to indicate that.
    Now my question. Can the Martian player use the Smoke on the next movement/action phase?
    As long as the Smoke Generator is ready to fire and the movement card allows an action, yes.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobP View Post
    I have read the rules and this has cleared things up but brought up another question for me.
    The Martian plays the first movement card and an Action card to fire the HR. The HR has to cool down so you place a marker to indicate that.
    Now my question. Can the Martian player use the Smoke on the next movement/action phase?
    Yes.

    In playtesting, the Smoke Generator was usable every other turn, so I was using the Heat-ray one phase, with Black Smoke the next, and alternating until I got low on energy. Now, Black Smoke can only be deployed once in three phases, and my tactics have to adapt. Also, there are lots of damage cards now that bleed off enery cubes, where only Special Damage cards used to bleed off energy.

    But, as the Smoke generator and the Heat-ray generator are separate, it might be possible for a real ace pilot to fire the Heat-ray and launch Black Smoke in a single turn. Sometime in the future of the game, there may be a Tripod with more crew that would allow firing the Heat-ray and launching Black Smoke in a single turn?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  14. #14

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    I thought so but just wanted to hear what others thought.

  15. #15

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    Hi all,

    I have read through this thread but I am a little confused with regards to timings and blocking LOS with black smoke.

    In the games we have played our thoughts were that if smoke is launched and lands on a nearby attacking plane then although the black smoke has the damage effect it also stops the plane from firing back. After all shots are done then the smoke dissipates.

    Not sure if our interpretation was correct.

  16. #16

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    My thinking is that, in the absence of any relevant Ace Skill cards, all firing is simultaneous, so, by the time the black smoke canister bursts, the machine gun bullets are already flying.

    If the black smoke hits a plane, a damage card is drawn and the smoke cloud is immediately dissipated without affecting Line of Sight. If the smoke cloud does not hit a plane, the smoke cloud remains on the table and blocks Line of Site in subsequent phases until it is dissipated.

  17. #17

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    I see it the way David explains it. All firing is simultaneous as normal.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    My thinking is that, in the absence of any relevant Ace Skill cards, all firing is simultaneous, so, by the time the black smoke canister bursts, the machine gun bullets are already flying.

    If the black smoke hits a plane, a damage card is drawn and the smoke cloud is immediately dissipated without affecting Line of Sight. If the smoke cloud does not hit a plane, the smoke cloud remains on the table and blocks Line of Site in subsequent phases until it is dissipated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    I see it the way David explains it. All firing is simultaneous as normal.
    Please read through the sequence of play, and it should explain. All firing is simultaneous. The Black Smoke is launched as the bullets fly. Then, the Black Smoke template is placed (IIRC). So, there is no chance in the current firing phase for Black Smoke launched in the same phase to block Line of Sight.

    PS: Ooops. It isn't in the rules. As stated in the Optional Rules, not in the Firing Phase description, the Black Smoke template is placed after all movement. This is not how I played during testing, but as we came to play, based on the 'simultaneous' firing of all weapons within a firing phase. It is logical that if the smoke is launched within a given phase: it has to be launched; travel to the chosen landing spot; and, then deploy into a cloud. So, even if the smoke is launched before all the shooting, it wouldn't block Line of Sight in the current phase.

    PPS: This whole thing about smoke blocking Line of Sight is probably my buddy's and my fault. We were playtesting one day, and using the photo-recon scenario. My buddy, a die-hard Squad Leader player, brought up the issue of photographing targets, shooting, etc... through smoke, Black or otherwise. We went to Ares, asked the question, and now, we are dealing with this. Apologies may be due.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-30-2019 at 14:22.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  19. #19

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    Hum, thanks to everybody for taking the time to respond but unfortunately I am as confused as ever!

    Because the smoke is launched before shooting I would think it does not clash with the "simultaneous fire rule" and so anybody who is hit should not get a shot in the following shooting round.

    To me it makes sense as the smoke has only just been launched blinding the pilot who cannot shoot.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by william1134 View Post
    Hum, thanks to everybody for taking the time to respond but unfortunately I am as confused as ever!

    Because the smoke is launched before shooting I would think it does not clash with the "simultaneous fire rule" and so anybody who is hit should not get a shot in the following shooting round.

    To me it makes sense as the smoke has only just been launched blinding the pilot who cannot shoot.
    No. Black Smoke is an Optional Rule, and does not supercede normal rules unless it specifically states so. There is nothing that says Black Smoke is deployed before all other firing. It says it is launched after all movement. Just like all firing is performed after movement. So, Black Smoke and shooting all happen at the same time.

    PS: Looking at the basic rules, 'After all vehicles have moved, ... tripods that chose a firing action card must fire with its chosen weapon.'. This is either the Heat-ray, or Black Smoke.

    PPS: Reading the tripod firing rules on Page 14, it also says there, '... after all vehicles have moved, the Martian Player checks if the firing tripod can hit a target.' so, same language for both the Heat-ray and Black Smoke.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-30-2019 at 14:16.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  21. #21

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    It surprises me that black smoke is an optional rule as some tripods such as the Scarab only have the one heat ray emitter and then black smoke everywhere.

    Anyways I appreciate everybody's patience on this but I am running a demo game for 6 on Thursday so want to make sure I have it right!

    So it seems that if a plane is shot with black smoke, which lands directly on them then the plane can still shoot during that turn.

    However...

    Am I correct in saying that if a plane moves into black smoke that was shot in a previous turn, the plane suffers the damage (black smoke dissapears) and then the plane can now shoot as normal?

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by william1134 View Post
    ...

    However...

    Am I correct in saying that if a plane moves into black smoke that was shot in a previous turn, the plane suffers the damage (black smoke dissapears) and then the plane can now shoot as normal?
    This is a completely different case, and has nothing to do with shooting. You are now discussing movement, in the Movement Phase. If a vehicle moves such that the base, or a maneuver card touches a Black Smoke template, the vehicle dissipates the smoke, but if it is a plane it takes a Z Damage Card. This happens before any shooting. If the plane survives the damage, it can shoot normally, in the Firing Phase.

    Sort-of like if a plane performs an illegal maneuver, and takes damage. If that damage exceeds the rating of the plane, down it goes, before the next Firing Phase.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 10-30-2019 at 23:11.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  23. #23

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    Here's a fringe case for you.

    A pilot has planned a Steep maneuver (say a stall, to maintain firing arc on a target). During the Steep maneuver, the plane crosses a Black Smoke template (one already in place, or one placed in the previous Firing Phase), and takes a pilot wound from the Z damage card. Now, the pilot can't fire, as wounded pilots are not allowed to fire on Steep maneuvers!
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Here's a fringe case for you.

    A pilot has planned a Steep maneuver (say a stall, to maintain firing arc on a target). During the Steep maneuver, the plane crosses a Black Smoke template (one already in place, or one placed in the previous Firing Phase), and takes a pilot wound from the Z damage card. Now, the pilot can't fire, as wounded pilots are not allowed to fire on Steep maneuvers!
    As per the thread below yours, if you move into a black cloud during movement the Z damage card is applied before the firing phase and the cloud dissipates. So, if you take a pilot wound on a steep manoeuvre as per your example you would lose the chance to fire that phase.

  25. #25

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    Nice explanation... it also means that if a plane dies from smoke then they don't get to shoot at all as he technically died before the shooting phase!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Here's a fringe case for you.

    A pilot has planned a Steep maneuver (say a stall, to maintain firing arc on a target). During the Steep maneuver, the plane crosses a Black Smoke template (one already in place, or one placed in the previous Firing Phase), and takes a pilot wound from the Z damage card. Now, the pilot can't fire, as wounded pilots are not allowed to fire on Steep maneuvers!
    I agree, Mike. A pilot, who has just been wounded would be too busy reacting to the pain and shock and trying to control the aircraft in the steep manoeuvre to worry about shooting.



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