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Thread: Correlation between BSG success and more Wings sets?

  1. #1

    Default Correlation between BSG success and more Wings sets?

    I’ve been pondering the recent up tick in frequency in Wings releases between both WGF and WGS. Do you think there is any correlation with the success of the BSG game and the more frequent Wings releases this year? Or was there a back log of Wings products due to production issues both related to TaT delays and what was already in the Wings production queue?

    It would seem to me with how far out in advance they need to plan these sorts of releases that the apparent BSG success would be too new to have any real impact on this year’s Wings releases. In short, despite what I would consider to be an increase in revenue for Ares from the success of the BSG game, I don’t believe we are seeing these additional WINGS sets because of the increased cash flow to Ares from the BSG game’s sales. Or am I completely off base? Obviously, the success of one game doesn’t typically effect other titles within the company. However, with thes success of BSG, I have to wonder if Ares has more confidence in producing more products due to the success of BSG? WGF has always done enough to stay alive and I wonder if some extra capitol isn’t being put into the Wings game to try and get more current out of print models back into our hands and build up stock and try and grow the game. We have always known Ares didn’t have the spending power of say, Fantasy Flight Games and have been limited in some ways with what they could produce. However, would I highly popular game like BSG change all of that?

  2. #2

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    hopefully, Ares will continue with the repaints and get to D.VII's again

  3. #3

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    BSG is too new to effect what we are seeing in Wings releases. I would suspect BSG success will foster more BSG releases, not Wings releases. If Wings can't sustain itself (which I pray it can keep doing) ARES would be stupid to throw funds from a different successful game into it. The future of BSG is very bright and it is just beginning. Hopefully Wings will also keep advancing. If the tease of a campaign comes to fruition it will be a big boost for Wings and should bring in new people.

  4. #4

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    My opinion is that BSG won't have anything to do with WoG. Looking at what happened with BSG, it isn't even on the same planet, let alone league, with WoG. BSG appeared to be conceived (at least announced, anyway) in April of last year, and the game was on the market in November. Light speed compared to anything that has happened in the WoG line.

    Production issue for WoG, WWI and/or WWII, have been completely separate, and ARES has made some interesting decisions in output for both the WWI and WWII games that frankly boggles me. There were decisions made that appeared to me to be completely commercial, certainly not historical, nor theatre, based. The serious stumbling block of production for the WWI planes, and in consequence the delay in the Tripods & Triplanes release, took much longer than anticipated to rectify (the tripods were ready for release in December last year, as far as I am aware. Apparently, it was problems with the WWI plane production, and all the nonsence afterward, that delayed the release of everything in the WWI Line).

    Different factories, with much different quality control, are putting out BSG and WoG. The miniatures for BSG are in competition with X-Wing, and ARES decided to make them comparable. There is currently no competition for WoG in the market place, so ARES isn't keeping the quality and accuracy of the miniatures up. Certainly not to what was put out in Wings of War, nor even earlier releases for WoG. ARES has taken a significant step down the quality ladder, and I believe future minis will be a disappointment to veteran players.

    What I think is happening is that the WoG models are now consequently very cheap to produce, and ARES can afford to supply them to a niche market without crippling their cash-flow. We'll have to wait and see what the output of future models is like, and whether they sell as is. I haven't bought any WoG WWII planes since the release of the Battle of Britain Squadron Packs, except the Starter Set (to get the latest version of the rules), as I can't accept the way the models are being produced. From what I've seen of the latest bomber samples, they will be as bad or worse for finish.

    So, no correlation in the two games, with completely different market targets and demographics. As I have found at Conventions and demo sessions, space ships attract much more attention than war planes. If the games were compatable, and interchangable, I could see some spill-over from one to the other. I haven't seen it. Old guys like the history, the planes and the machineguns/cannons, and stop to talk when I have Wings of Glory on the table. Young people like the spaceships and lasers, and will sit and play.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  5. #5

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    ARES is a boardgame manufacturer. That is their core business, how they have always made most of their revenue, and what they know how to do, and do well.

    It was an act of faith to jump into the miniatures game line, and they're just now getting the hang of it in terms of marketing.

    At least, that's my impression.

  6. #6

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    Just looking at the nu ber of AAR's, I am not sure that BSG has been all that succesful. Either way, it is great to have choices and I do not think one product will impact on the other.
    Last edited by Baxter; 08-21-2019 at 23:53.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    Just looking at the nu ber of AAR's, I am not sure that BSG has been all that succesful. Either way, it is great to have choices and I do not thi k one product will impact on yhe other.

    it was very clear bsg was successful at origins this year. walking up the day of the 33 scenario i saw that they had set up all the rest of the tables not being used for wgs in a large L shape in their booth. i asked "whose delusion is this" laughingly thinking there was no way they would fill such a large table up. how wrong i was. the table was full to the max, over 30+ players there. i was wowed.

  8. #8

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    i think its too early for bsg to have had an effect on wog. sadly as others have said, i dont think there will be much spillover between the 2 games.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    it was very clear bsg was successful at origins this year. walking up the day of the 33 scenario i saw that they had set up all the rest of the tables not being used for wgs in a large L shape in their booth. i asked "whose delusion is this" laughingly thinking there was no way they would fill such a large table up. how wrong i was. the table was full to the max, over 30+ players there. i was wowed.
    So why so few AAR's?

  10. #10

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    Didn't the success of the T and T kickstarter provide extra money that they chose to use for additional airplane reprints? That's kind of how I saw it. T&T is basically the WGF reboot and the S.1 & S.4 planes are part of that same investment. Their sales will probably determine what else fets reprinted and if S.10 gets a go ahead.

    Vote with your wallets!

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    So why so few AAR's?


    couldnt say with an certainty, but my guess woukd be because few of those players are members of this drome.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenalfonzo View Post
    Didn't the success of the T and T kickstarter provide extra money that they chose to use for additional airplane reprints? That's kind of how I saw it. T&T is basically the WGF reboot and the S.1 & S.4 planes are part of that same investment. Their sales will probably determine what else fets reprinted and if S.10 gets a go ahead.

    Vote with your wallets!
    It would be nice to think that Ares made a ton of money with T&T, but the delays and problems they encountered probably ate up any overages, and may have actually dug them a hole. I'm fairly sure a trip to China to sort out the WWI plane factory was not in their original production budget.

    I am not clear on the cash-flow picture, but Ares could be keeping budgets of different games separate, to deliniate profitability. Also, it is obvious that different production facilities are being used for different games, and therefore costs of production could be very different. IIRC, Ares was trying to change the production method for Wings, in that previous releases were using a single mold of four different planes in one, to a mold of individual planes. I don't know if that was what caused the production problem, nor whether it actually happened. It could explain the delays. Costs would have initiallly been high, but long term, it would mean that Ares could put out reprints of individual planes as needed, not a group with peg queens clogging up warehouse space, as tying up cash for other releases.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    So why so few AAR's?
    I'm guilty. I'm not posting all of my games, either.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  14. #14

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    Don't over think it. They announced both S.1 & S.4 reprints immediately following the conclusion of the KS. The question is will their sales be enough to justify more reprints & S.10.

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    I believe that Ares indeed keeps the revenue streams of their different game separate. This does cause a lot of angst among us WoG players, when the company is doing very well, but we can't get new releases or even reprints of the rules sets.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  16. #16

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    I still think stepping back with WoG to the original model of plane cards and maneuver decks with the fancy planes as bonuses is the way to go. To this day the biggest stumbling block is finding planes to play with. Providing decks and cards would allow players to either just take a box off the wall and play or use whatever they have plane wise with proper maneuver decks. Concentrate on the pacific box set and card/deck packs to get people playing. Also dump the rules only boxes and stick to 4 planes in a box with the rules and decks so people can play out of the box without having to fumble around looking for planes to use. We also need a steady stream of basic aircraft for WWI like they have for the BoB box set. Say DVII, Dr I, and Alb DV vs Sop Camel, Spad XIII, and Nieu 17. Or keeping in line with the production model pick 4 of these planes in generic paint jobs to keep on the shelves of stores AT ALL TIMES. Also make sure there are the 2 plane boxes out there at all times and come up with some WWII ones. Hurricane Vs Me109 and Corsair vs Zeke or something like that. Changing the mold lineup is a good start though to keep the proper planes in production while avoiding making more non movers. I think one of the bigger problems is the game is moving so slow that it can not gain any traction (or is is just dead and we ain't giving up yet). Getting back to a card based game system allows them to concentrate on campaigns, fronts, and theaters printing out lots of basic planes and decks without all the hassels of the minis and Chinese production issues. New product drives interest, waiting 5 years for a basic DH 2 or Eindecker to be reprinted does not.

    Again, do not stop making the planes, but allow the game to develop without depending on the slow boat from China.

  17. #17

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    Just a couple of details.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    BSG appeared to be conceived (at least announced, anyway) in April of last year, and the game was on the market in November. Light speed compared to anything that has happened in the WoG line.
    Battlestar Galactica Wings of War and Star Wars Wings of War have been discussed for ages. Fan made versions have been around since Summer 2004, a few months after Wings of War was released:
    https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/7...98#item1811698

    I do not remember when the actual project was started - a completely redesigned game even if reminescent of Wings of Glory and Sails of Glory. In any case, after several months of designing, the first game session took place on June 7th, 2016. More than two years before the actual release of the Starter Set.
    https://boardgamegeek.com/image/4085...es-starter-set

    The game was announced far later, when all about production was set and all approvals by Universal Pictures were cleared.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    There is currently no competition for WoG in the market place, so ARES isn't keeping the quality and accuracy of the miniatures up. Certainly not to what was put out in Wings of War, nor even earlier releases for WoG. ARES has taken a significant step down the quality ladder, and I believe future minis will be a disappointment to veteran players.
    The factory is the same since 2007, people is the same. Even if I saw only photos, not the real stuff, I find the new miniature gorgeous, and no inferior to previous ones.
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  18. #18

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    I tend to agree on the quality of the miniatures still being generally exceptional. I had my entire collection of 100s of WGF and WGS out all over my kitchen table and counter tops, as I took inventory and moved them into new storage solutions. I found the entire collection breathtaking and was so impressed by the continuity of quality across the line. For full disclosure, there are a few minor quibbles, but they are few and far between and small and mostly inconsequential to all but the most picky of grognards. Considering, what we pay for these models, I think they are fantastic and Ares has done a great job of delivering a quality product at a fair price. Keep building them and I will keep buying them. Hopefully, we can get a new series with previously unreleased aircraft in the near future. However, it sounds like a series 5 reprint will happen before a new series arrives. With the demand for series 5 to be reprinted, I understand if we have to wait a bit longer for a hypothetical series 10.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Just a couple of details.



    Battlestar Galactica Wings of War and Star Wars Wings of War have been discussed for ages. Fan made versions have been around since Summer 2004, a few months after Wings of War was released:
    https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/7...98#item1811698

    I do not remember when the actual project was started - a completely redesigned game even if reminescent of Wings of Glory and Sails of Glory. In any case, after several months of designing, the first game session took place on June 7th, 2016. More than two years before the actual release of the Starter Set.
    https://boardgamegeek.com/image/4085...es-starter-set

    The game was announced far later, when all about production was set and all approvals by Universal Pictures were cleared.



    The factory is the same since 2007, people is the same. Even if I saw only photos, not the real stuff, I find the new miniature gorgeous, and no inferior to previous ones.
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    Thanks for the clarification on all the above, Andrea.

    I knew of the Star Wars Wings version back in 2012, as I have most of the cards on file for the 'player-produced' mods. I consider BSG a much better version, and very well conceived. I saw the posts in April of 2018, and I had a Starter Set in my hands at Christmas, so the time-scale from my perspective is much shorter than yours. Knowing that two years of development happened before April 2018 goes a long way to explaining the speed at which the finished product got to our hands.


    As for the delay in miniature production, that the same factory couldn't put out WWI models that Ares was happy with makes it harder to beleive that there were production problems, though.

    The SE5a above is a nice plane, but...

    Wings of War Hurricane:
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    Wings of Glory Hurricane Sqn Pack:
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    Quote Originally Posted by P-51D View Post
    ... For full disclosure, there are a few minor quibbles, but they are few and far between and small and mostly inconsequential to all but the most picky of grognards. Considering, what we pay for these models, I think they are fantastic and Ares has done a great job of delivering a quality product at a fair price. ...
    I just can't get past paying $12 Cdn for the WWS Hurricane, and $22 for the WGS Hurricane that doesn't look anywhere near as finished.

    Guilty as charged.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #20

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    At least Ares got the upper Roundels right.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    At least Ares got the upper Roundels right.
    Pete,
    It really depended on the day, and what photo you have as a reference. I have images of No.1 RCAF Hurricanes with nothing like a standard "RAF Official" roundel and insignia pattern on them, supposedly in England in June 1940. No tail flashes, four colour roundels on the upper wings, two colour roundels on the fuselage. Which is sort-of what I did up my home-made decals for my repaints.

    Reference paint scheme:
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    My hash of the paint scheme:
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    As Ares and Andrea have said, you can find images all over the internet that could prove a point. Doesn't help me get over the overall quality of the finish.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

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    Maybe so, Mike, but theirs was supposed to be Bader's and was the only British version they gave us, which made absolutely no sense.

  23. #23

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    A Squadron Pack for Wings of Glory is a different thing from a Wings of War airplane pack. Players complained that it is more realistic to fly several planes from the same squadron, instead than planes from different units or nations. Especially in WW2 scenarios. Ares listened and answered with Squadron Packs, where planes are immediately playable by people not really caring of historical accuracy while historically-oriented players can find in that very pack the decals to finish up each plane with different schemes from the same unit. Hurricane comes with decals for 5 different planes belonging to 303 Squadron, with details including the small Hitler's face on Witold Urbanowicz's RF-F. And if I remember well, even some fuselage extra letters to make even more planes if you want. This allow you and your friend, if you have multiple models, to fly a far more historical unit instead than just a few casually gathered Hurricanes as it was with Wings of War.

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    Last edited by Angiolillo; 08-24-2019 at 22:52.

  24. #24

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    Are the squadron packs still available? I would love to do a Hurricane 303 squadron . . .

  25. #25

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    Yes they are. First online game shop that Google poroposes me has them for 10.59$ each. For the same price you can also get the other Squadron Packs: Supermarine Spitfire (610 Squadron), Bf.109E (Jagdeschwader 2), Junkers Ju.87 B (Sturzkampfgeschwader 77):

    https://www.miniaturemarket.com/arewgs403a.html

    The Upcoming and Available page on Ares' site give them on stock, so your preferred brick & mortar shop can order them for you.

    https://www.aresgames.eu/upcoming-products

    Upcoming bombers (Do-17, Ju-88, Blenheim, S.79 Sparviero) will also be provided with decals: two versions each (Do-17 as a Z-2 bomber and as a Z-7/Z-10 night fighter, Ju-88 as A-1 and A-4, Blenheim as a Mk.I and Mk.IV, S.79 as a bomber and as a torpedo bomber), each version with a range of decals for a different squadron, each squadron with several individual codes.
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 08-25-2019 at 01:31.

  26. #26

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    Keith has the 303 Squadron Hurricane listed on the Aerodrome Accessories page for $11, Dave...

    All the best,
    Matt

  27. #27

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    I've been playing Wings of Glory for 5 years as of this summer. I had been mostly away from tabletop gaming since high school, but got back into it as something to do with my kids, who at the time were aged 7 and 9.

    My oldest boy has some physical challenges that prevent him from being able to participate in sport, and at that critical time - elementary school - he was feeling really left out quite often, as that's the age when the running, jumping, kicking and everything else are such a central focus for boys' activities.

    Gaming became something where his physical limitations didn't hold him back. We started with Wings of Glory but went on to play many, many other systems, including X-Wing, Armada, a raft of Games Workshop offerings, and more. The WoG "training" must've served my son well, as he eventually would go on to win an X-Wing and an Armada store tournament - at all of 10 years old, against adult opponents who'd been gaming for many years.

    In that time, tabletop gaming became an important hobby for me, too, not just playing with my kids, but with a local gaming group of people who've gone on to become some of the best friends I've ever had. I got to introduce them all to the WoG system - something many were reluctant to do, as they're more sci-fi / fantasy -oriented gamers, not historicals players - and they've all become fans. I've run a number of campaigns and overall we've had a lot of fun. WoG is held to be one of the very few, and possibly only, universally-loved gaming systems in the group (who are tremendously experienced gamers and quite demanding of a game's mechanics).

    I've subsequently introduced BSG and now Tripods & Triplanes and those games have also gotten good reviews from my group (as well as myself, of course!).

    Long story short, after five years, there are plenty of systems I've tried and discarded, but my enjoyment and appreciation of Wings of Glory and its many permutations (BSG, T&T, Sails, etc) just continues to grow and deepen the more other systems I'm exposed to. I'm now in the process of paring down the "deadwood" of the various systems that no longer interest me, but I'll never give up my planes!

    Like most WoG fans, I'm mystified by Ares' approach to marketing the game, and will frequently squirrel away extra RAP packs and similar to help out future prospective players in times of Ares-induced drought. On the plus side, the WoG system is largely immune to the utter nonsense and runaway "feature creep" of most other systems, so there's a level of future-proofing in any WoG purchase that, with the benefit of broad exposure to the gaming marketplace as a whole, I've come to truly appreciate, despite the temporary aggravations of this plane or another being out of stock at a given time.

    Long story short, like the rest of you, I'm looking forward to more planes and will continue to purchase quite happily as long as they keep coming.

    Steve

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    A Squadron Pack for Wings of Glory is a different thing from a Wings of War airplane pack. Players complained that it is more realistic to fly several planes from the same squadron, instead than planes from different units or nations. Especially in WW2 scenarios. Ares listened and answered with Squadron Packs,
    I very much appreciated that Ares listened to us and gave us squadrons.

    I wish they had done that with the RFC aircraft such as the Camel and SE.5a.
    I got around that with miscmini decals available from this site.

    There has been a great gnashing of teeth about the touch-ups required on the Battle of Britain aircraft, but to me that is a minor inconvenience.

  29. #29

  30. #30

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    So do I feel foolish. I found a black toolbox a while back and had indeed bought AND touch up painted a 303 squadron, a Spitfire squadron and 3 Me109 and 2 Stuka squadrons. Painted, decaled, reboxed, shelved and forgotten.

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    Still looking for my mind . . . what is wrong with this picture? Forgot to upload the picture!
    Last edited by clipper1801; 08-26-2019 at 15:12.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by clipper1801 View Post
    . . . what is wrong with this picture?
    Is it upside down Dave ...... ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post

    Wings of War Hurricane:
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    Wings of Glory Hurricane Sqn Pack:
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    I just can't get past paying $12 Cdn for the WWS Hurricane, and $22 for the WGS Hurricane that doesn't look anywhere near as finished.

    Guilty as charged.
    Wow! That is a considerable price difference for sure! I don’t pay anything near that here in the USA. That being said, one of my quibbles is certainly the lack of paint along the wing edges and other control surface edges. I wish they were done like the earlier versions. However, the lack of decals has more to do with it being part of the squadrons packs and being able to customize the plane.

    I hope you weren’t overly offended by my grognard comment. I am certainly more of a grognard myself and more so the older I get.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo
    The factory is the same since 2007, people is the same. Even if I saw only photos, not the real stuff, I find the new miniature gorgeous, and no inferior to previous ones.
    If the factory is the same since 2007, process might have changed.

    New models (not reprints) have got thicker wings and rudder/tails, and also edges painting issues since 2015 WW1 series (Fokker E.V, Nieuport 28, Macchi M.5, Hannover CL.IIIa / Phonix D.I, Nieuport 11, Sopwith Strutter, Albatros C.III) and since the 2016 WW2 serie (Bf.109K, P.47 Thunderbolt, Douglas Dauntless, Yokosuka D4Y),
    while the 2014 WW1 serie (Spad VII, Albatros D.II, Bristol F.2B Fighter, Halberstadt CL.II) and the 2013 WW2 serie (FW.190D, P.51 Mustang, Nakajima Ki.84, Spitfire Mk.IX) have been the most beautiful models produced by Ares.

    Has Ares given instructions to have different quality standard since 2015 ?

    WW1 SERIES
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    2016 : PHONIX D.I 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 2014 : SPAD VII

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    2016 : ALBATROS C.III 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 2014 : BRISTOL F.2B FIGHTER

    WW2 SERIES
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    2016 : MESSERSCHMITT BF.109K2013 : FOCKE WULF FW.190D2016 : YOKOSUKA D4Y

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Yes they are. First online game shop that Google poroposes me has them for 10.59$ each. For the same price you can also get the other Squadron Packs: Supermarine Spitfire (610 Squadron), Bf.109E (Jagdeschwader 2), Junkers Ju.87 B (Sturzkampfgeschwader 77):

    https://www.miniaturemarket.com/arewgs403a.html

    The Upcoming and Available page on Ares' site give them on stock, so your preferred brick & mortar shop can order them for you.

    https://www.aresgames.eu/upcoming-products

    Upcoming bombers (Do-17, Ju-88, Blenheim, S.79 Sparviero) will also be provided with decals: two versions each (Do-17 as a Z-2 bomber and as a Z-7/Z-10 night fighter, Ju-88 as A-1 and A-4, Blenheim as a Mk.I and Mk.IV, S.79 as a bomber and as a torpedo bomber), each version with a range of decals for a different squadron, each squadron with several individual codes.
    With respect, Andrea, the bricks and mortar shops cannot always order directly from the warehouse where they are in stock. Over here they have to go through the sole designated national distributor, which can be a bottleneck.

  35. #35

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    Yes you are right, things are more complicated on this side of the Ocean. Shops must order to distributors, and if those are out of stock they must wait for the distributor to restock.
    But it is also true that shops can skip the national distributor if in need. Pound/Euro rate may make it difficult or sometimes, I guess, even convenient. If the British distributor has no stock, a shop can order the English edition in Germany from Brave New World or in Scandinavia from Asmod馥 Nordic. And there are others. Usually order minimums are reasonable - the shop around the corner of my house sometimes ordered in England, sometimes in Germany, according to availability.
    I quoted the warehouse to say that product is available and can be obtained. Alas, as you say, the process can be not so smooth and direct.



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