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Thread: MK.IV Cuttlefish Maneuver Deck error?

  1. #1

    Default MK.IV Cuttlefish Maneuver Deck error?

    Cards number 8 and 9 show the same "steep side swipe" to the right but there is no left one on the deck. Is this an error?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
    Cards number 8 and 9 show the same "steep side swipe" to the right but there is no left one on the deck. Is this an error?
    Hmmm... This sucks for Ares, if it isn't a change from my play-test set.

    I have the "C" play-test Mk IV Tripod deck with short side-slips going both directions, one each. The TD deck has two going right.

    I also noted that the long wide turns on the TD deck are the whole diagonal of the card, not the length of the long straight. This is also a change from the "C" deck, where all the long arrows were equivalent lengths.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  3. #3

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    Card 9 and 10 in my cuttlefish TD deck are both short wide right sideslips - there are no short wide left sideslips. The long sideslips are one left and one right, and the turn/curve cards are also mirror images. I haven't looked at the other decks to see if there are inconsistencies - when we played with them last Saturday, no one noticed the issues (and the Cuttlefish was one we used...)

    Curiouser and curiouser...

    All the best,
    Matt
    Last edited by matt56; 08-17-2019 at 18:59.

  4. #4

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    Ouch. I haven't looked at my Cuttlefish yet. Oh well, scan, flip and print.

  5. #5

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    It's either deliberate, or, a Flamingo up (same as a cock up but much bigger) but it is what it is, aircraft have peculiarities, why shouldn't a tripod ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  6. #6

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    I agree, Dave - plenty of planes have cards one way and not another - it simply becomes part of your familiarity with the vehicle and how it operates...it can 'sidestep' right but not left.

    It is still a bad mama-jama!

    All the best,
    Matt

  7. #7

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    Just took a quick look at the maneuver decks of the other three tripods - all of them have mirror-image left and right maneuvers. The Cuttlefish is the only vehicle with the two right sidesteps and no left sidestep. I was just curious, as I hadn't paid that much attention when I initially went through the decks in unwrapping them...Martian peculiarities we will come to know and love...

    All the best,
    Matt

  8. #8

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    The question is: Is this intended or not?

  9. #9

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    No one here will know (well maybe Andrea!) - why don't you ask Ares and then let us know their response .. ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    It's either deliberate, or, a Flamingo up (same as a cock up but much bigger) but it is what it is, aircraft have peculiarities, why shouldn't a tripod ?
    Just like the P-47 Thunderbolt. One of the side-slips is not correct. P-47 Cuttlefish.

  11. #11

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    I have replied on the Kickstarter email, to report the receipt of my boxes, and the condition. I mentioned the warped and twisted MGS on the Nieuport 16s, and now mentioned the card situation yesterday, along with a comment on the Comment Page asking if anyone else has noted the same issue. So, ARES has been advised in two places, where I think it will be hard to miss.

    May need to wait until Monday for an official reply.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #12

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    Here's a quick fix I did with paint if you don't mind printing your own. I sleeve my cards so it won't be noticeable. You'll have to scan and print the back of the card too. If I get an ok I'll post a scan of the back here.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #13

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    Talking of wiiide sideslips I see that Ares have added a pair to the R deck without mentioning it... thus rendering the previous incarnation obsolete. Thanks Arses. May as well have made them steeps and called it an E deck.

    "He is wise who watches"

  14. #14

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    Guess the Cuttlefish must have a rotary engine.
    I will check my deck for signs of Castor Oil.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Talking of wiiide sideslips I see that Ares have added a pair to the R deck without mentioning it... thus rendering the previous incarnation obsolete. Thanks Arses. May as well have made them steeps and called it an E deck.
    Uh oh, looks like it will be 'scanning time' to flesh out my other 4 N.16 decks

    I guess we will need a way of identifying these new ones - Rr (R Revised) or Rn (R New) or R2D2 (R Damnit)

    When they do these changes they should offer new cards for the 'Old Guard' ...
    (actual cards not just a scan for us to to all the work)

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumptonian View Post
    Uh oh, looks like it will be 'scanning time' to flesh out my other 4 N.16 decks

    I guess we will need a way of identifying these new ones - Rr (R Revised) or Rn (R New) or R2D2 (R Damnit)

    When they do these changes they should offer new cards for the 'Old Guard' ...
    (actual cards not just a scan for us to to all the work)
    Probably can't give us the matching old cards that were Wings of War.

    As you say, time to scan and print out new sets for the old N16s.

  17. #17

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    Ares will have to rapidly print replacement cards, mail them out to all Kickstarter supporters and put them in boxes of Cuttlefish models as they are sent out to dealers.

  18. #18

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    Why do I have a bad feeling that the Martians do not want us to know of their true intentions and have been sabotaging this kickstarter project since the beginning.

    Seriously, you would have thought this would have been caught during the proof checks.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Here's a quick fix I did with paint if you don't mind printing your own. I sleeve my cards so it won't be noticeable. You'll have to scan and print the back of the card too. If I get an ok I'll post a scan of the back here.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cuttlefish 10a.jpg 
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ID:	273657
    Well done. But you could just slide the reprint into the same sleeve as the misprint?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Talking of wiiide sideslips I see that Ares have added a pair to the R deck without mentioning it... thus rendering the previous incarnation obsolete. Thanks Arses. May as well have made them steeps and called it an E deck.
    Could we house rule that the short side-slips were not available while carrying rockets?
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Ares will have to rapidly print replacement cards, mail them out to all Kickstarter supporters and put them in boxes of Cuttlefish models as they are sent out to dealers.
    They'll claim it's intentional rather than do that !

    "He is wise who watches"

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Talking of wiiide sideslips I see that Ares have added a pair to the R deck without mentioning it... thus rendering the previous incarnation obsolete. Thanks Arses. May as well have made them steeps and called it an E deck.
    I noticed this, too.
    I don't recall any other plane having 4 sideslips to each side...……………….

    The Nieuport 16 was supposed to be inferior in manoeuvrability to the N.11 owing to its heavier engine, so if the two wide sideslips are discarded the deck reverts to being identical to the Wings of War 'R' deck, and the N.11 has wide sideslips while the N.18 does not.

  23. #23

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    M deck is the only other one - had 4 to the right, 2 standard; 2 wide...steep in WoW, not steep in WoG ...

    "He is wise who watches"

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Well done. But you could just slide the reprint into the same sleeve as the misprint?
    Ah yes, an easier solution!

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    M deck is the only other one - had 4 to the right, 2 standard; 2 wide...steep in WoW, not steep in WoG ...
    Dave, having used a Snipe only once or twice I didn't notice the change from steep to not steep. Which is correct? Do we assume the latest version by ARES?

    I like Tim's suggestion of just removing the wide slips from the N16 deck. If the N16 was not as nimble as the N11 this is an easy solution.

  26. #26

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    Not to diminish Peter's work above, but a little more time in Photoshop produced this version of TD 10/21:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-19-2019 at 11:47.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  27. #27

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    12 or 10 like on the corrected card?

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by BwanaJoe View Post
    12 or 10 like on the corrected card?
    Dyslexia is tough. Comment above corrected to match the card.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  29. #29

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    So I hope/assume/expect an official correction/update/fix will come to us investors once the dust settles and any other adjustments need to be made, not in any hurry of course, the whole urgency thing got lost a long time ago . . . in a galaxy, far, far, away . . .

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Dave, having used a Snipe only once or twice I didn't notice the change from steep to not steep. Which is correct? Do we assume the latest version by ARES?..
    The answer is - the one you happen to be flying ! Saves faffing about with cards
    Having said that broad side slips in all but the P deck, and now R deck, are steeps...

    "He is wise who watches"

  31. #31

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    Horses for courses Dave as you say.

    Albert Ball with another advantage, suite you sir.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Not to diminish Peter's work above, but a little more time in Photoshop produced this version of TD 10/21:
    Thanks for another time saver Mike. This will be a first for me. Rep for T&T.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    Ares will have to rapidly print replacement cards, mail them out to all Kickstarter supporters and put them in boxes of Cuttlefish models as they are sent out to dealers.
    Shouldn't be a problem. Other publishers have replaced far more for free when a defect was found.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    Shouldn't be a problem. Other publishers have replaced far more for free when a defect was found.
    Sadly. Many others have made an additional charge under the guise of an update.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaJaySee View Post
    Sadly. Many others have made an additional charge under the guise of an update.
    Serious Poulp for example basically gave nearly everyone a second core game for no charge. Pandasaurs, and soon Awaken Realms, gave everyone replacement cards.

    Serious Poulp had slight color variation and size was a bit off. Awaken Realms the size was a bit off. Since these are stacked, and for me sleeved, it was impossible to tell. The only way was to lay the cards out side by side. But drawing sleeved cards from the top, again for me, I couldn't tell. Serious Polups game, The 7th Continent, is a card driven game with hundreds of cards. Now I, along with a lot of other people, have two games.

    Pandadaurs and Awaken Realms only replaced a hand full of cards. Six or less I think. Again, all three of these companies provided, or are providing, these replacements free of charge and no shipping.

    Ares could easily send out a replacement deck for the single model, if they could afford it. They are after all a small company. But customer service is how you get more people to notice you have good games and good practices.

    NOTE: The reason I said replacement deck and not just one card, is that there is always a chance of making the one card noticeable in it's size or color. This is what happened to both Serious Poulp and Awaken Realms, as the expansion was a different print run than the original game. Oops.
    Last edited by Ken at Sunrise; 08-21-2019 at 08:24. Reason: spell'in

  36. #36

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    One solution if cards aren't sleeved is to mark the extra sideslip card to indicate it's for the opposite direction and then use a replacement card with the sideslip in the correct direction when measuring. But I suppose the first step is to get an answer if the extra card is an error or not.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowDragon View Post
    [...] But I suppose the first step is to get an answer if the extra card is an error or not.
    +1 to this.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    They'll claim it's intentional rather than do that !

    Roberto di Meglio has confirmed that the TD deck has no short left sideslip by design.

    I think someone's been watching too much Rocky Horror Picture Show...

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    Roberto di Meglio has confirmed that the TD deck has no short left sideslip by design.

    I think someone's been watching too much Rocky Horror Picture Show...
    ?

    Really? This was not in the play-test decks, and it makes no sense, except as a mistake in printing that wasn't caught in time.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    ?

    Really? This was not in the play-test decks, and it makes no sense, except as a mistake in printing that wasn't caught in time.
    Sounds like an easy way out.

  41. #41

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    Called it ! (post #21)

    "He is wise who watches"

  42. #42

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    Whaaat!! That makes no sense at all!

    Good heavens, I had a deck of cards that were incorrectly die-cut in my ‘Colonies’ expansion to my ‘Terraforming Mars’ game and Stronghold Games replaced the whole deck!!

  43. #43

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    This deck will provide the unkindest cut of all!
    He needs to give a very good reason for this decision.
    My joke about it having a rotary engine will not cut it I'm afraid.
    If no good answer is forthcoming I proclaim that the official stance for our games should be to adopt Mike's replacement card as de rigueur.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  44. #44

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    Interesting. Did he mention a reason for this?

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
    Interesting. Did he mention a reason for this?
    Nope.
    I surmise it's a Timewarp thing.
    It's just a jump to the left, and then a step to the right...

    I think I'm right in stating that this is going down like the proverbial lead balloon?

  46. #46

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    So the rest of the KS fits?



    I think it’s a little hair in a tasty soup.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  47. #47

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    It might be rationalization but equally I don't see how one can say it makes no sense since the tripods are entirely fictitious (i.e., with made up capabilities). The Cuttlefish is fairly powerful so some limitations are out of place. Just my view.

  48. #48

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    It would be easier to understand it as 'intentional' if the other three tripods were not 'symmetrical' in their maneuver card options. Peter's and Mike's left-step card options are certainly a great option for folks wanting symmetry for the fourth tripod...

    All the best,
    Matt

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt56 View Post
    It would be easier to understand it as 'intentional' if the other three tripods were not 'symmetrical' in their maneuver card options. Peter's and Mike's left-step card options are certainly a great option for folks wanting symmetry for the fourth tripod...

    All the best,
    Matt
    That's, of course, a preference but one can't necessarily extrapolate from the other tripods without agreeing on the internal mechanics of the machines. If one knew nothing about the mechanics of airplanes and got one of the airplanes with an asymmetrical deck after having already owned number of the ones with symmetrical decks, what would one think? We have no agreed theory on the mechanics of tripods.

    The problem with extrapolating a conclusion from a set of knowns to a new observation without an underlying theory to justify that conclusion leads to a logical fallacy:

    rara avis in terris nigroque simillima cygno

    "A rare bird in the land as a black swan"....except that there are black swans just none had been seen by Europeans until they got to Australia.

    Given the fictitious nature of tripods there are various explanations for Ares decision - if Ares indeed will keep it as is:

    1) Ares decided, after play testing, that asymmetry in manoeuvre would be a nice unique characteristic;
    2) Ares had not initially intended the asymmetry but after seeing the error thought, "hey, that's a good idea. Let's keep it."
    3) Ares had not intended the asymmetry but decided to keep it merely due to cost.

    All three theories fit the observations, I see no reason to assume 3 over 1 or 2. Even if it is 3, so what?

    If enough people pressure - for whatever reason and preference is a perfectly valid reason in this case - Ares will likely have to change it. Personally, I'm just not fussed about it and will go with what Ares decides, but it's fine if others are.

  50. #50

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    Turning this on its head there is no logical reason to give an unknown and totally fictional mechanism an uncharacteristic disadvantage over its bretheren. From reading the books of HG Wells and the later interpolations I came to understand that the Tripod masters were an advanced and very technical society. They would never have allowed a transgression like this to have taken place.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

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